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  • Dec. 2008: It's time for Americans to take their blinders off
  • Dec. 2008: It's time for Americans to take their blinders off
  • Dec. 2008: It's time for Americans to take their blinders off
  • Dec. 2008: It's time for Americans to take their blinders off

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  1. #31
    Member Full Bull's Avatar
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    Default It Ain't GM

    Folks,

    As one who has negotiated with labor unions in the past (not the UAW), and have personally seen the backroom deals made between the union and their closest political allies, I can tell you that GM's not the running this game/calling the shots--the Union and the Senate Dems are.

    Trust me, if GM had it's way, they'd dump the UAW contracts/agreements and start from scratch. When appx $4,500 (thereabouts) of every car GM builds/sales goes to pay for the health care benefits of their current and past employees--and these cars are priced in the mid to upper $30K--folks can't afford to buy and GM's not going to be able to sell. As one talking head on the radio said, "The American people are going to awaken to the fact that GM is really a health care company who happens to build cars on the side." There's much truth to that statement ....

    Believe the ONLY way GM stays in business is that they get back to producing cars that the majority of Americans can afford; if they don't, no amount of money sent their way will save their bacon. These loans will only serve to postpone the inevitable ....

  2. #32
    Member WB9MCW's Avatar
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    I THINK I FOUND THE PROBLEM


    Ever wondered what a UAW contract looks like? Here is all 22 pounds of it (in this case, Fordís 2,215 page 2007 master contract; Coke can is for scale and because I was thirsty).

    Iíll tell you this much, those 2,215 pages donít include much regarding efficiency and competitiveness. What youíll find are hundreds of rules, regulations, and letters of understanding that have hamstrung the auto companies for years.

    If youíd like to read the contracts for yourself, here they are >>>


  3. #33
    Dec. 2008: It's time for Americans to take their blinders off 67HEAVEN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WB9MCW View Post
    I THINK I FOUND THE PROBLEM

    Yikes!

    It would take a full-time staff of Mandarins just to look up the answer to any question that came up.


  4. #34
    Member gmjunkie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 67HEAVEN View Post
    Yikes!

    It would take a full-time staff of Mandarins just to look up the answer to any question that came up.

    Aren't those Oranges??
    It's got so it seems to me that the Internet has created a lot more Horses A$$'s than we have Horses!
    junk!~!!
    Founding Member: 10 Corvettes Anonymous


  5. #35
    Dec. 2008: It's time for Americans to take their blinders off 67HEAVEN's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gmjunkie View Post
    Aren't those Oranges??
    CLICK


  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by 67HEAVEN View Post
    I did click ...yep, it's oranges!

  7. #37
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    I think the management needs to lead by taking a pay cut. The UAW here took a pay cut of 40%. Now you are asking them to take another. The top exes are all making over 10M and we are asking an employee making 36K to take another pay cut while the top management take home millions. They say they are worth it. The price of GM stock in 2002 was $68.00 now it is less than $5.00 but the board of directors are excellent. What would the numbers be if they were not such smart people? -$65.00 per share. The numbers I hear on the Toyota plant is $26.00 per hour or 54K a year. They are not going bankrupt. Also remember GM management agreed to the contracts and got big bonuses for being smart enough to negotiate them. The greed in GM is not limited. they are all guilty.
    Ken

  8. #38
    Member killain's Avatar
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    Default Happy New Year and . . .

    I would like to be really optimistic, but the facts don't lend themselves to that perspective. The Dow Jones ended the worst year since the great depression at around 8700 and we are as close to a full depression as we've ever been. Unless Detriot and the UAW decide that "They" are going to tackle the real Economic situation "NOW", then come March 30, we're going to be closed, Period! the Big 3 don't hold the 70% they once did, they hold 19% and dropping. So far GM has failed over and over at developing more market attractive models then ever. 'Can you really compare a Nissin Sentra with a Chevy Aveo ? beyond that we have the Colbalt, and frankly folks ain't breaking down the doors to get one of these either. I'm not a Union basher, and at this point I really don't know what their game plan is, but I can sum up what should be in their immediate newsletter, New Job Training center to Open soon ! Ford seems to be in almost OK position, GM as of Monday had a 0 balance in their operations bank account, save for the billions that the government deposited last night. But the senior management at GM needs to be replaced. I really don't think any long term plans exist. As is the case with Chrysler, their long range plans hold very little in a competitive model lineup. And whoever runs GM marketing and advertising needs to be fire at once. The reality is that the big 3 automakers are going to need about 1/3 + less workers that at present. And no matter how rosey the water is scented, the taste is bitter. GM needs Chevrolet, Cadillac and Buick. GMAC is a viable company and should be invested in, Chevy needs a total revamp, Hummer, How did this vehicle make it through "concept initiation"? what market is it directed at? all it's models are on Consumer reports WORSE MADE list, Jeep rounds out the list? Combine Pontiac models with Chevy. Decide if Buick is worth reshaping, I think perhaps it is, (But my opinion doesn't matter). What is most troubling to me is that 1. the US government Does Not want to get into the auto building industry. 2. I belive Mr. Gettlefinger would be quite happy to go home on April 1st and have a beer or cup of coffee and say "Well I did my best for the retired members, but of course we all laid off since the company is in bank receivership. and 3. I don't think anybody involved understands that WE ARE NOT SPENDING MONEY WE HAVE! we are barrowing money that your children and their children are going to have to pay back. 700 billion is a lot , lot of money. I want to see the American auto industry flourish, but it can only do this at a much smaller industry. The whole mindset of the peole involved needs to change, because come March 30th, and there's not a really, really conservative long range plan on the table, the Government is going to get involved in New Job training with our infrastructure and existing industries in mind. because we don't have the money to spend it both ways. I wish things were better, but their not and the sooner we realize that the faster we are going to prepare for the future. There is no such thing as a job guarranty anymore in any industry. I'm sorry if I disturbed anyone holiday, but we have to think about what is really important in life, like taking care of the children, their education and the elderly. Imagine what would happen come March if the Social Security Administration was in competition for the same dollars that Detriot is begging for, because that's not really that far off the mark! GM, Ford and Chrysler = self That Mr Wagoner and Mr. Gettlefinger is the future. The pathway to hell is paved with good intentions.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by killain View Post
    I would like to be really optimistic, but the facts don't lend themselves to that perspective. The Dow Jones ended the worst year since the great depression at around 8700 and we are as close to a full depression as we've ever been. Unless Detriot and the UAW decide that "They" are going to tackle the real Economic situation "NOW", then come March 30, we're going to be closed, Period! the Big 3 don't hold the 70% they once did, they hold 19% and dropping. So far GM has failed over and over at developing more market attractive models then ever. 'Can you really compare a Nissin Sentra with a Chevy Aveo ? beyond that we have the Colbalt, and frankly folks ain't breaking down the doors to get one of these either. I'm not a Union basher, and at this point I really don't know what their game plan is, but I can sum up what should be in their immediate newsletter, New Job Training center to Open soon ! Ford seems to be in almost OK position, GM as of Monday had a 0 balance in their operations bank account, save for the billions that the government deposited last night. But the senior management at GM needs to be replaced. I really don't think any long term plans exist. As is the case with Chrysler, their long range plans hold very little in a competitive model lineup. And whoever runs GM marketing and advertising needs to be fire at once. The reality is that the big 3 automakers are going to need about 1/3 + less workers that at present. And no matter how rosey the water is scented, the taste is bitter. GM needs Chevrolet, Cadillac and Buick. GMAC is a viable company and should be invested in, Chevy needs a total revamp, Hummer, How did this vehicle make it through "concept initiation"? what market is it directed at? all it's models are on Consumer reports WORSE MADE list, Jeep rounds out the list? Combine Pontiac models with Chevy. Decide if Buick is worth reshaping, I think perhaps it is, (But my opinion doesn't matter). What is most troubling to me is that 1. the US government Does Not want to get into the auto building industry. 2. I belive Mr. Gettlefinger would be quite happy to go home on April 1st and have a beer or cup of coffee and say "Well I did my best for the retired members, but of course we all laid off since the company is in bank receivership. and 3. I don't think anybody involved understands that WE ARE NOT SPENDING MONEY WE HAVE! we are barrowing money that your children and their children are going to have to pay back. 700 billion is a lot , lot of money. I want to see the American auto industry flourish, but it can only do this at a much smaller industry. The whole mindset of the peole involved needs to change, because come March 30th, and there's not a really, really conservative long range plan on the table, the Government is going to get involved in New Job training with our infrastructure and existing industries in mind. because we don't have the money to spend it both ways. I wish things were better, but their not and the sooner we realize that the faster we are going to prepare for the future. There is no such thing as a job guarranty anymore in any industry. I'm sorry if I disturbed anyone holiday, but we have to think about what is really important in life, like taking care of the children, their education and the elderly. Imagine what would happen come March if the Social Security Administration was in competition for the same dollars that Detriot is begging for, because that's not really that far off the mark! GM, Ford and Chrysler = self That Mr Wagoner and Mr. Gettlefinger is the future. The pathway to hell is paved with good intentions.

    I remember back in the day when GM decided to go with the "corporate engine" in 1978, I was in the dealer network as a mechanic and we were shocked when this happened! We had customers come in with Oldsmobiles with a Chevy engines in them to the customers dismay. Even the Olds dealer would refuse to work on them and the owners of the cars wanted GM to buy them back as they thought they were being swindled by GM. This was to "save" money for GM, but the quality of the build contineued to get worst, and the customer satifaction continued to decline. To me this was the water mark of GMs decline to posible bankuptcy and it's image of poorly built cars.

  10. #40
    Member WB9MCW's Avatar
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    Well put Killian I think you hit the nail on the head.

    The formula is broken and it needs a major overhaul.

    To put the burden on the future generations of Americans is not right period.

    If any of the 52% of the GDP small business companies get in trouble well who saves our azz?

    Remember The great Senator Clinton's comment as the first lady "We can't help it if you small businesses are under capitalized and have trouble making it through tough times."

    The last thing I want to see is the government get into the health care business. We will end up like Canada. They come to the US for operations on their own nickel (more like saved up Gold coins) since the waiting list is so long in their own country. Some great solution that is.

    We have major issues ahead for the new "I am gonna bring you great change" President. Notice as soon as he was elected he started back tracking about how big the economy problems are and how it may take him 1-2 -- well heck maybe 4 years to turn it all around. He is already figuring he will need 2 terms to fix it all--- RIGHT!!!

    I think he has just now figured out how big a job he has in front of him and now with the new Zion-Hamas War just starting he will be tested as soon as he begins as well Ms. Hillary too!

    I am sorry to say the government is not very good at business and if they were held to the standards they hold all the "real business companies" (Banks and Car companies evidently excluded) to they would never survive.

    This whole business of the Freddy/Fanny bailout is pathetic and a total ripoff of the Taxpayers to bailout the banks (who print and control our money in the first place) and to give control to one man (who has the banks best interest in mind being an ex one of them) is a total sham and trickery at its finest. Shame on the all of the Repubs and Demos for this crap. I do not trust either party anymore.

    Funny how the banks are sitting on the money now with no accountability and the dumb azzes in Congress look like a bunch of nim wits because they were and are. Stupid is as stupid does.

    Full time munti-term, multi-millionaire, lawyer/banker politicians who vote their own wages and belong to the "elite ruling class", Self appointed big wigs are the real problem and the fact that many years ago President Wilson sold the USA to the New York bankers who were afraid of losing financial control of the country because of the wealth transfer happening to the farmers and the western expansion of the USA to the banks south and west was the real beginning of the problem. It is now just finally caught up to us all.

    The depression generation is very well into retirement and most are doing very well indeed -- Look at em all in Florida and AZ. and at the BJ auction spending all their wealth. They do not have to worry about Social Security. The silent generation now is well into retirement is in about the same boat -- good timing and they will be OK before SS goes broke.

    Ahh but the Baby Boomers (me) -- we are up the chit creek with out any paddle. The whole damn system will be broken and impossible to repair since there is not enough younger workers to pay into SS to make it work any more.

    But fear not Baby Boomers because the new great King Obama has promised us a great change and he and all of his smart cronies will finger out another way to fix it for a while longer to get all of us Baby Boomers through a decent retirement.

    No doubt at the expense of the future generations. You see this is how modern politics works - it is called "Passing the Buck" or should I say "NO BUCKS" on to the next generation.

    Sorry I paint such a bleak future bit I am just trying to be real and relate all that History should have taught us. I guess us Americans think the great ruling elite who are so smart and know it all will finger it all out and save us all! --- NOT!!!

    As Henry Ford said many years ago "Tis good the average American knows not much about the real financial conditions and operations of the US government and how the ultra wealthy bankers have it all worked out because if they did there would be a revolution at the White House the very next morning."

    Does an ostrich with its head in the sand come to mind!

    Sheeple of the USA need to wake up and vote the bums out of congress and put in real honest non-lawyer and non-banker types who will run a real county the way the forefathers designed it to be. Go to Washington and serve a term maybe two and then go back to where you came from and get back into the business that made you in the first place.

    Boy have we deviated from that original formula. No wonder it is all screwed up these days. Wealthy career friggin lawyer/banker politicians for life that is the problem in a nutshell. And it is very wrong!

    "JMO and I might be all wrong" -- as Dennis Miller likes to say.



  11. #41
    Don Strausburg
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    Default Detroit Quality

    Come on Rob, get real. Just because JD Power says they are good we should all go out and buy one. JD Power is nothing more than a big joke. They are hired by anyone who wants there product rated. JD Power is in business to make money. If they are hired by a company to evaluate their product do you really believe that JD Power is going to give them a negative review? You always get what you pay for, and if you pay enough you can get them to say the Chevy Vega was one of the best economy cars ever built.

  12. #42
    Member motorman's Avatar
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    guess what nancy and barney will be designing your next corvette. do you think that the libs are going to allow GM to build a 638 HP 205 MPH car ???? people wanted change and they are going to get more change than they ever imagined.
    retired race engine builder,former NASCAR tech inspector,corvette owner since 1959, new corvettes owned,59,62,63,64,65,66,97,99,02,05, 2008 is in my garage, 2008 sold and waiting for my C-7

  13. #43
    Member killain's Avatar
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    Very well put WB9MCW, One would think that after 233 years we'd learn something. But as sheeple we allow the wealthy to decide the furure course for us. History is almost like Math, When you do as you did, you get what you'v got. J.D Power is a company, a business, paid to do research on other businesses. What do you think their going to find? If you doubt this, Look at the good ol. BBB The Better Business Bureau, in every major city and town. Do you know who pays for the Better Business Bureau to operate? The regional Business community. Knowing this, using common logic, how do you think their going to find if you have a dispute with a business? And don't get a headache trying to figure this one out. Just look at Cuba, fifty years ago yesterday, Fulgencio Batista ' El Mulato Lindo' fled Cuba, do you know who left with him? Cuba's wealthy, and Cuba's wealth. If your a purist, look at America, Thomas Jefferson, a nice guy, reasonable and optimistic, he said "Banking establishments are more dangerous than a standing army!" Fast forward to the begining of the twentieth century, another wise individual said " There is no tyranny facing this country, more dispised and vile than that of wealth." Teddy Roosevelt, the only American president to be awarded the Congressional medal of honor. So if anyone out there thinks that a soul on GM's fourteenth floor is interested in saving the company, then they are few and far apart. I'm quite sure Mr. Wagoner has sold his stock and has his assets in offshore accounts and is perhaps hoping something incredible happens soon after January 20th. But just in case,.... If General Motors is saved, it'll be by some lone soldier down the ranks. I hope so. If this country is to make it to 333 years, it's going to take a something incredible as well. A PA politician once told me, "Wealthy people don't vote, they move!" There's 85 days and counting, I'm hoping their well used.

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