• GM's Rick Wagoner to step down ASAP
  • GM's Rick Wagoner to step down ASAP
  • GM's Rick Wagoner to step down ASAP
  • GM's Rick Wagoner to step down ASAP

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  1. #31
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    if i have to pay for the hot dog, then you cannot have chili w/ mustard.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kid_Again View Post
    I dunno. First he nationalized some investment banks on a random basis and forced out some of their top management. "Too Big To Fail"

    Now he randomly nationalizes GM and what's left of Chrysler (soon to be Fiat).

    The government's answer to a problem is more government. I agree that GM went hat-in-hand to DC and this all started with Bush. I wonder whether Bush was a closet commie or he just ran out of wind (and poll ratings) at the end and rolled over to Chairman Obama.

    The next step will be to nationalize the equities market. It's never been a free market but it will get worse. Just give it time.
    I have never subscribed to any of the 'Bailout' schemes put forth by this or any administration. And if it were up to me, ( as I have posted before) Mr. Gettlefinger would have left the spotlight quite a while ago. And while I have never been a fan of President Bush, He Had Nothing to do with the current situation, in fact in December when Persident Bush went on national TV stateing he was extending the last of the TARP funds, 17.6 billion, to the two cars compainies, he stated he was not very inclined to do this, but because he did not want this financial hurricane to hit Persident Obama on his first days as the incoming persident, he was going to give this money to GM and Chrysler.


    And yes, Yoda, I believe as you do in the free enterprise system, And i've posted to that effect that companies have to manage and control themselves or go out of business, BUT what do you do with the many, many thousands of workers who would join the thousands already out of work and collecting unemmployment compensation ? Because that system is already staining to supply the funds that they are currently are, and the prospects of future employment for all these unemployed workers is dismal to non-existant. I realize many don't see the sense the government doing all these bailouts, but the prospect of doing nothing is much, much worse. Personally, I think once you start these "bailouts' you already start down a VERY slippery slope which will have absolutly very damaging effect on the very immediate future of this country. In very short order our whole system of government finance is spent, gone. And we couldn't sell a tresury note if we were giving them away. Anytime you start spending tomorrows dollars to finance todays activities, you in trouble. This whole situation is going to blow up and we'll be lucky to be able to fund any of the government operatios as all. ie: What would happen if this July, another hurricane Katrina hits the gulf coast ?

  3. #33
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    If my company is on the brink of insolvency, are any of you going to come to my rescue with a bail out?

    Of course, the economic impact of our insolvency is orders of magnitude different than GM but it's the same point. Why should government interfere in business to the point where it dictates its own terms? Doesn't Washington already have enough clout with the IRS?

    I categorically deny the argument that we risk our manufacturing base with insolvency of GM and perhaps Chrysler. We have been essentially ASSEMBLERS for decades. I take the point about a knock-on effect of secondary suppliers/manufacturers disappearing and I regret that but it is a fact of life that when you enjoy the benefits, make sure that you have planned adequately for the risks. God forbid, sometimes the actual downside is so horrible that people need help to get them through or they are the victims of circumstances so devastating that they need the help of the government. THAT'S when the government should provide a safety net.

    Neither GM Management or the UAW Management were/are competent. If they were, they would not find themselves in this mess. Fire their assses, just like Wagoner. Unfortunately, we are stuck with the politicians.

    Another example of our own naivete comes from a government program from the New Deal - Social Security. It's clear that SS was meant to be one leg of a support system for retirement. Somewhere in the idealistic 60's it became the notion of existing on Social Security. Now we have to fund SS to the point where it becomes an absolute necessity - the very meaning of the word entitlement so the government prints more money so that we can pay for all these entitlement programs.

    We seem to forget that government can do what we cannot - print money to cover up their mistakes. So, how can government ethically and practically run an ostensibly money-making commecial venture? It defies all reason.

    If GM would have declared bankruptcy a year ago, they would have just been ahead of the worst of the financial crisis (with more to come).

    Self-serving sycophant execuitves who just got their butts kicked by a Neighborhood Organizer from Chicago and a narcissistic Treasury Secretary/former Wall-Streeter.

    I also found it interesting that we may think that the chicoms are not real good at innovation and putting engineering into practice. Yeah, I've seen a recent list of patents issued to GM. And the best we can do is the Silverado? Cut me a break.

  4. #34
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    Hey, if someone asks me to bail them out of their mess, you can bet I'm going to hand out some ultimatums. If Wagoner refused to step down, he would risk taking down the whole ship because GM wouldn't get a red sent from Uncle Sam, which BTW is our money!

    Wagoner did the right thing and so did Obama.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Achilles View Post
    Hey, if someone asks me to bail them out of their mess, you can bet I'm going to hand out some ultimatums. If Wagoner refused to step down, he would risk taking down the whole ship because GM wouldn't get a red sent from Uncle Sam, which BTW is our money!

    Wagoner did the right thing and so did Obama.
    Wrong. Obama did not tell the head of the UAW to step down did he? I am all for Wagoner "stepping down" (if that is what you want to call it) but get rid of the UAW while you are at it. Both parties are guilty.

    The parasite killed the host. The host was too stupid to seek treatment. I guess both should die.

    I would like to see Union heads roll as well but Obama the labor friendly Pres. wont allow it.

  6. #36
    Member njlouc's Avatar
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    The boy will get ~$2million/year pension.
    But the biggest issue is the way that the US govt pushed everyone aside and said this the way to do it (AKA our way or the highway). This is socially dangerous. If they were totally honest (never) it may be the way to go - NOT.

  7. #37
    GM's Rick Wagoner to step down ASAP Patrick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Achilles View Post
    Hey, if someone asks me to bail them out of their mess, you can bet I'm going to hand out some ultimatums. If Wagoner refused to step down, he would risk taking down the whole ship because GM wouldn't get a red sent from Uncle Sam, which BTW is our money!

    Wagoner did the right thing and so did Obama.
    Perhaps you could point out for me where in the US Constitution, a document specifically intended to LIMIT the power of the federal government by enumerating its powers, it says the President/Executive Branch has the power to dismiss the head of a private sector company. I seem to have missed it.

  8. #38
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    This has nothing to do about the constitution. The minute GM went to borrow money to survive they gave up their rights. Try going to your bank and telling them you are on the verge of bankruptcy, have very little income and you want to borrow $100,000 dollars from them then continue on with the same behavior. See what they tell you. Believe me if they give you the money they will tell you how you are going to change.
    Ken

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by ken mohr View Post
    This has nothing to do about the constitution. The minute GM went to borrow money to survive they gave up their rights. Try going to your bank and telling them you are on the verge of bankruptcy, have very little income and you want to borrow $100,000 dollars from them then continue on with the same behavior. See what they tell you. Believe me if they give you the money they will tell you how you are going to change.
    Exactly my point.

  10. #40
    GM's Rick Wagoner to step down ASAP Patrick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ken mohr View Post
    This has nothing to do about the constitution. The minute GM went to borrow money to survive they gave up their rights. Try going to your bank and telling them you are on the verge of bankruptcy, have very little income and you want to borrow $100,000 dollars from them then continue on with the same behavior. See what they tell you. Believe me if they give you the money they will tell you how you are going to change.
    Quote Originally Posted by Achilles View Post
    Exactly my point.
    I see. So if you borrow money from a bank to (take your pick: start up a business, expand a business, consolidate debt, whatever), and after the initial loan package is written, if suddenly the bank decides it doesn't like your business model, or finds a flaw in your business plan, the bank can demand your removal from the business?

    And don't go saying the difference is this was public money. The principal still stands that in this case, the lender decided on regime change at the business because the lender didn't like the business model.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
    I see. So if you borrow money from a bank to (take your pick: start up a business, expand a business, consolidate debt, whatever), and after the initial loan package is written, if suddenly the bank decides it doesn't like your business model, or finds a flaw in your business plan, the bank can demand your removal from the business?

    And don't go saying the difference is this was public money. The principal still stands that in this case, the lender decided on regime change at the business because the lender didn't like the business model.
    100% correct. They come and take over you company as soon as you can't pay your bills. GM already can't pay their bills. Which is even worse.

    Show me in the constitution where it says when the Government loans money to a business they are not allowed to put restrictions on them to insure they get the peoples money back. Show me in any laws that state you can't demand a resignation on a officer of the company before you will grant them a loan

  12. #42
    Administrator Yoda's Avatar
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    "Show me in the constitution where it says when the Government loans money to a business .... "


    A better question would be:
    "Show me in the constitution where it says the Government can loan money to a business .... "

    Bud

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    "Show me in the constitution where it says when the Government loans money to a business .... "


    A better question would be:
    "Show me in the constitution where it says the Government can loan money to a business .... "

    Bud

    Show me in the constitution where it says the Government can't loan money to a business

    Which goes back to my statement the constitution has nothing to do with this.

  14. #44
    Administrator Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ken mohr View Post
    Show me in the constitution where it says the Government can't loan money to a business

    Which goes back to my statement the constitution has nothing to do with this.
    GREAT response, wouldn't have expected anything other than a Straw Man... you were the one that brought up the "Constitution"

    Bud Dougherty
    Amarillo, TEXAS

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    you were the one that brought up the "Constitution"

    Bud Dougherty
    Amarillo, TEXAS

    Not really Patrick did a post or two before my reply

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