• GM's Rick Wagoner to step down ASAP
  • GM's Rick Wagoner to step down ASAP
  • GM's Rick Wagoner to step down ASAP
  • GM's Rick Wagoner to step down ASAP

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  1. #16
    Member Kid_Again's Avatar
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    So, you're the CEO of a major global auto company, you run it into the ground fastern' a cop driving a ZR1 to Dunkin' Donuts and what do you get?

    A $23 Million severance package


    Where do I sign up for a job like that?


    And now, the gummint will print money to make GM and Chrysler warranties worth something.

    I WANNA BE A DEMOCRAT

  2. #17
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    RICK....................
    dont leave us!
    whats going to happen to Chevy, C. C. c c. c.......
    CAVALIER!

    WHATS GOING TO HAPPEN TO oLDSMOBILE DELTA 88,
    make more SUVs with extra steel reinforcements and steel bumpers.

  3. #18
    Moderator catbert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kid_Again View Post
    Well, America, you got what you wanted. An administration that has no problems nationalizing any industry it wants to.
    Wasn't it GM who went to the government for the bailout? GM could have walked away anytime they wanted to, and still can. The truth is that ineptitude and greed brought GM down. Don't blame Uncle Sam.

  4. #19
    Member markmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
    Whether or not Wagoner's departure is a good thing for GM, I'm more than a little concerned about the precedent being set here: the occupant of the White House can dictate to a private company who gets to keep their job. Isn't this what a Board of Directors is for?

    Or have we finally shed all pretense of still being a free market, capitalistic society, and decided to just nationalize the auto industry as one step on the march toward a community organizer's socialist utopia?
    Thanks for saying what I couldn't put into words Patrick. I was rather shocked to hear "By the administration" when the story broke. Lousy thing is, it didn't help.

  5. #20
    GM's Rick Wagoner to step down ASAP Patrick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by catbert View Post
    Wasn't it GM who went to the government for the bailout? GM could have walked away anytime they wanted to, and still can. The truth is that ineptitude and greed brought GM down. Don't blame Uncle Sam.
    A couple of points in response:

    1. There were calls back in December (and ever since, actually) that what GM should have done was entered into a pre-packaged Chapter 11 re-organization. For whatever reason, GM (Wagoner) refused to consider that option, even though a bankruptcy court could have restructured GM's debt and the UAW legacy costs.

    2. Should Wagoner have been fired? I think his failures out-weigh his successes, so yes. But that decision should have come from the Board of Directors, on behalf of the shareholders, not from the oval office. This is unprecedented in the history of this country, and it frightens the hell out of me.

    3. The irony is that in as much as the Obama administration has done this, and in the process, made a Chapter 11 Re-organization far less likely, doesn't this mean that Obama now owns the situation at GM? If it continues to flounder, you can't blame anyone else.

    4. I'd like to know when the head of the UAW is going to be pressured to resign by the White House. Isn't he as culpable for this mess as Wagoner?

  6. #21
    GM's Rick Wagoner to step down ASAP DDLS3's Avatar
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    well said Patrick
    Dale

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kid_Again View Post
    So, you're the CEO of a major global auto company, you run it into the ground fastern' a cop driving a ZR1 to Dunkin' Donuts and what do you get?

    A $23 Million severance package


    Where do I sign up for a job like that?


    And now, the gummint will print money to make GM and Chrysler warranties worth something.

    I WANNA BE A DEMOCRAT
    The $23 million is not a severance package, that is his pension. While we can argue all day about who is at fault for GM's current state I would contend that Wagoner is mostly guilty of trying to grow the company out of its problems (Retirement benefits and Pensions for white and blue collar employees) instead of slashing and burning when it could still be done (5-6 years ago).

  8. #23
    Member Curious George's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kid_Again View Post
    At least Obama says (let's see what he'll do) that bankruptcy is an option for GM. That great former Leader Of The Western World, Dubbya, didn't have the guts to do that.

    I wonder how GM would feel if their headquarters were moved to Guongdong Province? "More noodles, Mr. Henderson?"
    The Chinese are great at copying and cloning things, at least in a physical sense... it may look like something you are familiar with, but it will not operate or feel like the "real" thing. They can't even get to the moon with stolen technology that is 40 years old!

    CG

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by muddywaters View Post
    America has become a deceptive country. Too much fine print, too much corporate greed, too much arrogant elite-ness. If your looking for the truth, you won't find it in the US. While our goverment (past and present) preaches rightousness to the rest of the world, we screw over each in the name of profit, some make enough money for 100 life times and that's not illegal, but is immoral and unethical. There is no conscious, just greed. The greatest financial minds in the world have turned out to be basic thieves. I hope they get the Genie back in the bottle, but I feel it's bigger than any one man or group of men.......

    You must also be talking about the leaders of the UAW correct? If you point fingers at GM's management then you also must point fingers at the UAW and thier leaders. GM became a benefits company that just so happend to build cars. I dont see any one at the UAW getting asked to leave.

    My fear is that B.O will put so many restrictions on G.M and make them run at a loss, while giving the UAW everything they want just to keep all of them happy. (amtrack???) The loss will be supported by the taxpayers, and every 2 years a new "C.E O" will be put in charge to help turn it around. Meanwhile we are paying $70.00 per hour for some guy to place back seats in some econobox P.O.S that the GOV mandates OMC (Obama Motors Company) to make. The real solution is to get rid of the union while they are at it.

    Oh, and the UAW supporters will say "but we are the ones that provide the workers that build the quality". Really? If so, then why do the Jap cars and the Germans et al all rank higher in quality than U.A.W built products?(ok, Buick is up there and so is the Vette so you get 2 out of how many????)

    The real problem is the parasite that is the union, the only problem is that when the host dies, so does the parasite. However this parasite has Obama on thier side.

    Now, I probably struck a nerve with a few people, but I am sick and tired of the UAW getting a free pass. The proof is, it is not the UAW that provides the quality people that build cars it is American Workers! Put down the UAW kool aid and while you are at it put down the B.O (or should I say BS) Kool aid as well! This is real scary what he is doing.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
    Whether or not Wagoner's departure is a good thing for GM, I'm more than a little concerned about the precedent being set here: the occupant of the White House can dictate to a private company who gets to keep their job. Isn't this what a Board of Directors is for?
    What was reported was that this was one condition of another loan from the government to GM. So, it's not really dictating, as GM could refuse to meet the condition or negotiate a modified condition for the loan. And, it's not really setting a precedent, as similar conditions were specified previously for loans made to AIG, Fannie Mae, and Freddie Mac.

    Mike

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    hot dog and politics.

  12. #27
    GM's Rick Wagoner to step down ASAP Patrick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike76c3 View Post
    What was reported was that this was one condition of another loan from the government to GM. So, it's not really dictating, as GM could refuse to meet the condition or negotiate a modified condition for the loan. And, it's not really setting a precedent, as similar conditions were specified previously for loans made to AIG, Fannie Mae, and Freddie Mac.

    Mike
    And none of this bothers you? Setting aside Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, which are GSE's (Government Sponsored Enterprises), it doesn't bother you that vast sectors of the economy are in the process of being nationalized by the federal government? It certainly bothers me.


    Edit to add: Larry Kudlow, of CNBC's Kudlow Report, has THIS to say about the Wagoner firing:

    Sen. Bob Corker (R., Tenn.), probably the most knowledgeable man in Congress about the car bailout, and someone who argued months ago in favor of a pre-planned government-sponsored bankruptcy for GM and Chrysler, calls the Wagoner firing “a major power-grab by the White House on the heels of another power-grab from Secretary Geithner, who asked last week for the freedom to decide on his own which companies are ‘systemically’ important to our country and worthy of taxpayer investment, and which are not.” Corker calls this “a marked departure from the past,” “truly breathtaking,” and something that “should send a chill through all Americans who believe in free enterprise.”
    * * *

    As for Detroit, the carmakers should have been in bankruptcy months ago. And it is a bankruptcy court that should have fired GM’s Wagoner and his board. Along with some serious pain for bondholders, bankruptcy would have broken the high-cost labor contracts with the UAW as well as carmaker contracts with dealers across the country. That’s what bankruptcy courts are for. They’re part of the free-market capitalist system.

    And why isn’t Obama’s special auto task force ordering a replacement for Ron Gettelfinger, the UAW’s president? Weren’t their oversized pay and benefit packages a big part of the problem? Well, that’s never gonna happen. The election power of the union is too strong. But this does reveal the political nature of these government bailout operations.


  13. #28
    Member killain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dad2BJO View Post
    You must also be talking about the leaders of the UAW correct? If you point fingers at GM's management then you also must point fingers at the UAW and thier leaders. GM became a benefits company that just so happend to build cars. I dont see any one at the UAW getting asked to leave.

    My fear is that B.O will put so many restrictions on G.M and make them run at a loss, while giving the UAW everything they want just to keep all of them happy. (amtrack???) The loss will be supported by the taxpayers, and every 2 years a new "C.E O" will be put in charge to help turn it around. Meanwhile we are paying $70.00 per hour for some guy to place back seats in some econobox P.O.S that the GOV mandates OMC (Obama Motors Company) to make. The real solution is to get rid of the union while they are at it.

    Oh, and the UAW supporters will say "but we are the ones that provide the workers that build the quality". Really? If so, then why do the Jap cars and the Germans et al all rank higher in quality than U.A.W built products?(ok, Buick is up there and so is the Vette so you get 2 out of how many????)

    The real problem is the parasite that is the union, the only problem is that when the host dies, so does the parasite. However this parasite has Obama on thier side.

    Now, I probably struck a nerve with a few people, but I am sick and tired of the UAW getting a free pass. The proof is, it is not the UAW that provides the quality people that build cars it is American Workers! Put down the UAW kool aid and while you are at it put down the B.O (or should I say BS) Kool aid as well! This is real scary what he is doing.
    I am not, nor ever professed to be a fan of the UAW, but here in 2009 the situation with GM is DEBT. It's sheer number is one that is impossible to sell yourself out of even if you were to stay in busines for the next 100 years. GM owns the UAW 20 Billion alone? To be logical, the only answer to GM regaining any sort of financial stability is to once and ever, remove the volume of debt. And the only person capable is a federal judge who can render all contracts Null and Void. Is it fair, I don't know, what I do know is mathamatics, and the math does not support a future for General Motors carrying this mountain of debt.

    Some will obviously be upset by my statements, but at this point in time there is No way for there to be a happy ending to this story of Greed, Mismanagement and bad decisions. And, the american public CANNOT be held responcible for what happened two or twenty years ago. The american public has been forced to have the right to now decide if GM and the UAW have any legitimacy to continue.

  14. #29
    Member Kid_Again's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by catbert View Post
    Wasn't it GM who went to the government for the bailout? GM could have walked away anytime they wanted to, and still can. The truth is that ineptitude and greed brought GM down. Don't blame Uncle Sam.

    I dunno. First he nationalized some investment banks on a random basis and forced out some of their top management. "Too Big To Fail"

    Now he randomly nationalizes GM and what's left of Chrysler (soon to be Fiat).

    The government's answer to a problem is more government. I agree that GM went hat-in-hand to DC and this all started with Bush. I wonder whether Bush was a closet commie or he just ran out of wind (and poll ratings) at the end and rolled over to Chairman Obama.

    The next step will be to nationalize the equities market. It's never been a free market but it will get worse. Just give it time.

  15. #30
    Administrator Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by killain View Post
    ....at this point in time there is No way for there to be a happy ending to this story of Greed, Mismanagement and bad decisions. And, the american public CANNOT be held responcible for what happened two or twenty years ago. The american public has been forced to have the right to now decide if GM and the UAW have any legitimacy to continue.
    In my world of Capitalism it NOT the governments responsibility (read voting Public) to entertain management or direct Private Corporations... Regulate ~ certain aspects e.g. Safety, Enviornmental, etc. not to determine the product development, product price and target markets ~

    As we continue down this path I wonder where we will end up

    For ANYONE in the Government to pressure PRIVATE INDUSTRY boarders on Mafia Protection and Control, only in this case it's OUR Government that is playing the role of the "Syndicate" I think it is the owners/board members/share holders responsibility to direct and control the present and future of the Corporation.

    Yes GM, Ford, Chrysler went to Congress with their plates empty and asked to cut inline to the front of the Buffet. Why did / does the Government feel it is their (read OUR, tax payers) obligation to BUY into it. Most of those in Congress don't have a clue about true management of a business let alone any idea of our Consitution and the pulse of our Nation as felt throughout our Country. These are the saviors Puleessse

    Do I have the answers, probably not But then again in the Free Market System I can't think of too many Business's that stay the same throughout their existance... But I don't feel it's going the way our founding fathers had invisioned

    Bud Dougherty
    Amarillo, Texas
    "Quality, not quantity"
    "The American people will never knowingly adopt "SOCIALISM." But, under the name of "LIBERALISM," they will adopt every fragment of the "SOCIALIST" program, until one day America will be a "SOCIALIST NATION," without knowing how it happened.
    (Norman Thomas, U.S. SOCIALIST PARTY CANDIDATE PARTY presidential candidate 1940, 1944 and 1948)


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