Thanks Thanks:  0
Likes Likes:  0
Dislikes Dislikes:  0
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 16 to 27 of 27
  1. #16
    New Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    4
    Post Thanks / Like
    Rides
    0

    Default Ethanol 10 percent

    Quote Originally Posted by Vettehead Mikey View Post
    You're just repeating the same myths and misunderstandings without reference to real-life experience. The ethanol phase separation video is a circus side show demonstration. If a gas tank is sealed, there's no water entering.

    What's the point?
    short note. for the (10) percent fuel issue.. When that's fuel substitute was interdicted . The car industry (old cars) gasket material valve seals etc: disolved to slime..my 65 396/425 for instance from the gas tank ..to the carb.....the gas station I previous used was tested at 21 percent no longer use this store! Fyi. Owner Manuel's for chain saws lawn mowers etc: DO NOT USE...............this product........OLD SCHOOL ....David Sr

  2. #17
    Member Vettehead Mikey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Not that far from Ottawa
    Posts
    3,487
    Corvette(s)
    1973 Coupe
    Post Thanks / Like
    Rides
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kpic View Post
    Leave some gas in your lawn mower for months without stabil and you'll get the point.
    This is a car forum. I don't leave any type of fuel in any small engine over the winter. They don't have sealed gas systems like cars which makes all the difference in the world. Here's a picture of the inside of my car's gas tank. The gas is two years old. It's had nothing but E10 since the mid-90s Do you see any water, phase separation or corrosion?


    gas-tank-jpg

  3. #18
    New Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    4
    Post Thanks / Like
    Rides
    0

    Default What Mikey

    Quote Originally Posted by Vettehead Mikey View Post
    This is a car forum. I don't leave any type of fuel in any small engine over the winter. They don't have sealed gas systems like cars which makes all the difference in the world. Here's a picture of the inside of my car's gas tank. The gas is two years old. It's had nothing but E10 since the mid-90s Do you see any water, phase separation or corrosion?


    gas-tank-jpg
    . I have some aviation fuel in my (67) still looks new and the smell!
    i don't see any relation to my post for for you to get up in the air about......but this fuel you are so up about cost me a327/340 (eat my original gaskets up. I have owned more Corvettes then the normal gear head! Go NCRS. David Sr

  4. #19
    Member Vettehead Mikey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Not that far from Ottawa
    Posts
    3,487
    Corvette(s)
    1973 Coupe
    Post Thanks / Like
    Rides
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by David Sr View Post
    .
    i don't see any relation to my post for for you to get up in the air about.....
    That's because I was replying directly to another poster regarding his statements (as quoted), not yours.

    Sorry to hear about your car but I can only imagine that it was equipped with very old hoses and gaskets that might have been due for change anyway. They don't last forever irrespective of what fuel is being used.

    Materials used since the 1990s are E10 compatible in almost all cases.

  5. #20
    New Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    4
    Post Thanks / Like
    Rides
    0

    Default Old corvette

    Quote Originally Posted by Vettehead Mikey View Post
    That's because I was replying directly to another poster regarding his statements (as quoted), not yours.

    Sorry to hear about your car but I can only imagine that it was equipped with very old hoses and gaskets that might have been due for change anyway. They don't last forever irrespective of what fuel is being used.

    Materials used since the 1990s are E10 compatible in almost all cases.
    Lot of restored corvette's out there from the early 90' beware of the issues. times they are a changen. Thanks take care. David Sr

  6. #21
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Columbus, NC/NE Georgia
    Posts
    2,293
    Corvette(s)
    1997 boosted silver coupe
    Post Thanks / Like
    Rides
    0

    Default

    Gosh is this still continuing?

    To get away from the internet, one needs to use this search: Scholarly articles for 10% ethanol gasoline and phase separation

    The articles are written by techies and Ph.d types. In the articles, they discuss everything from how water gets into the pure gas to it's end affects on engines.


    Fuel Phase Separation in Ethanol Blended Gasoline's
    Courtesy of Scott Irwin
    Did you know? In a 10% Ethanol Blend, it takes as little as 18 gallons of water in a 6,000 gallon tanks to cause Phase Separation. In a 2% blend it takes only 3.6 gallons to cause Phase Separation

    What is "phase separation", and how do I deal with it?
    If significant amounts of water are present in a fuel tank with gasoline that contains ethanol, the water will be drawn into the fuel until the saturation point is reached for the three-component mixture of water + gasoline + ethanol. Beyond this level of water, phase separation could cause most of the ethanol and water to separate from the bulk fuel and drop to the bottom of the tank, leaving gasoline with a significantly reduced level of ethanol in the upper phase. If the lower phase of water and ethanol is large enough to reach the fuel inlet, it could be pumped directly to the engine and cause significant problems. Even if the ethanol water phase at the bottom of the tank is not drawn into the fuel inlet, the reduced ethanol level of the fuel reduces the octane rating by as much as 3 octane numbers, which could result in engine problems.
    Well-Worth Products, Inc.: Articles - Fuel Phase Separation in Ethanol Blended Gasoline's

    Ethanol-Water Phase Separation White Paper
    Samir Jain
    Background
    The use of ethanol as a fuel in the United States has significantly increased over the past decade.
    Today, greater than 80% of all retail gas stations in the US blend gasoline with up to 10%
    ethanol (E10). Ethanol is a renewable fuel, and has been highlighted by the national Renewable
    Fuels Standard as a primary method of achieving the renewable fuels goal. Ethanol is also an
    octane booster, and E10 fuels rely on the ethanol content to achieve octane levels.
    Water Intrusion
    Fuel is typically stored in underground storage tanks (UST) and it is common for water to find its
    way into these tanks. Prior to the use of ethanol, water entering the tank would drop through the
    fuel and find its way to the bottom of the tank were it could be detected and removed before it
    would be picked up by the pumping system and delivered into a vehicle. Pure water is heavier, or
    denser, than gasoline-based fuels. The following table shows the density of various fluids at
    15°C (59°F):
    Ethanol is a hydrophilic compound, which means it naturally attracts water. Therefore when
    water enters a tank containing an ethanol blended fuel, the water will eventually be absorbed by
    the ethanol. The amount of water that is absorbed in the fuel versus falling to the bottom is a
    function of the rate of water flow into the tank along with the amount of mixing that occurs. Full
    absorption usually requires some kind of mixing such as that provided during a fuel delivery to a
    UST. Table 2 highlights many common reasons for water intrusion in an underground storage
    tank, and the rate at which water flows into a tank.
    http://nationalpetroleum.net/Ethanol...tion-facts.pdf

    Journal of Petroleum Technology and Alternative Fuels Vol. 2(3), pp. 35-44, March 2011
    Available online at Journal of Petroleum Technology and Alternative Fuels
    ©2011 Academic Journal
    Full Length Research Paper
    Physico-chemical properties of bio-ethanol/gasoline
    blends and the qualitative effect of different blends on
    gasoline quality and engine performance
    Tangka J. K.1*, Berinyuy J. E.2, Tekounegnin3 and Okale A. N.3
    Physico-chemical and operational properties of various gasoline bio-ethanol blends were evaluated.
    Bio-ethanol was obtained through distillation from maize (Zea mays), sugar cane (Saccharum L), raffia
    (Raffia vinefera) wine, and palm wine and then purified using a rotavapor. Engine trails involved
    combinations of various ratios of gasoline/bio-ethanol as fuel in a small unmodified gasoline engine
    connected to a dynamometer. The vapour pressure, octane number, flash point, specific gravity, and
    energy density of various compositions of the blends were evaluated. Sugar cane gave the highest
    yield of alcohol 97.99 g per kg of produce while the lowest amount of alcohol of 10.5 ml per kg of
    produce was obtained from palm wine. Engine power decreased from 0.400 kW with 100% gasoline as
    fuel to 0.108 kW with a gasoline ethanol ratio of 1: 10. The octane number increased from 93 at E10 to
    106 at E90. The energy density decreased from 33.180 MJ/l at E10 to 23.600 MJ/l at E90. Other physical
    observations suggest that to successfully run a gasoline engine with bio ethanol/gasoline blends some
    modifications would have to be done on the engine, including advancing of ignition timing, provision of
    air tight fuel conduit network, and modification of piston heads to improve pre-combustion fuel
    homogenisation.
    These are technical papers, not the usual stuff to read. Personally as I don't need to pass a course rather than read all of the above, I'll take their word for it. Doubters, feel free to embark on the most boring reading of their life.


    MTBE
    An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie

    MTBE is does not phase separate; however, it can pollute ground water so it is a no-no
    Last edited by kpic; 10-17-14 at 08:54 AM.
    Whoosh, and blur

  7. #22
    Member Vettehead Mikey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Not that far from Ottawa
    Posts
    3,487
    Corvette(s)
    1973 Coupe
    Post Thanks / Like
    Rides
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kpic View Post
    Gosh is this still continuing?

    To get away from the internet, one needs to use this search: Scholarly articles for 10% ethanol gasoline and phase separation

    The articles are written by techies and Ph.d types. In the articles, they discuss everything from how water gets into the pure gas to it's end affects on engines.

    There's no doubt that phase separation exists. My point is that it does not occur in sealed containers. No moisture, no phase separation.

  8. #23
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Columbus, NC/NE Georgia
    Posts
    2,293
    Corvette(s)
    1997 boosted silver coupe
    Post Thanks / Like
    Rides
    0

    Default

    As we have been discussing vehicle gas tanks which aren't sealed where did sealed containers come from?

    The articles mention large tanks and judging by their size, the tanks are at a gas station, not the shipping depot which can have its own problems. The gas can be contaminated with water when we pump it into our vehicles, why would a sealed container matter? The cap and flap won't help as the gas is contaminated when we buy it.

    If it wasn't for the EPA we'd be using MTBE which doesn't have these issues.
    Whoosh, and blur

  9. #24
    Member Vettehead Mikey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Not that far from Ottawa
    Posts
    3,487
    Corvette(s)
    1973 Coupe
    Post Thanks / Like
    Rides
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kpic View Post
    As we have been discussing vehicle gas tanks which aren't sealed where did sealed containers come from?
    Have you read any of the posts above? Post #7:


    Quote Originally Posted by Vettehead Mikey View Post

    These sky is falling scare tactics about phase separation are laughable. Sounds like it's written by a high school kid that's never left his mom's basement

    1) NO ONE drives around with their gas cap off which would be the minimum required to allow significant moisture to enter and contaminate the gas. Cars since the 60s have had sealed or semi sealed gas caps that allow zero direct inflow of air or only when a slight vacuum is applied. They are not open like some older boats.

    2) Supposedly, phase separation will cause the water laden ethanol to sink to the bottom of tank while the gas floats to the top. If this was true, the engine wouldn't start or run. How would it therefore become damaged?

    3) Despite 30+ year presence of E10 in North America, the first 20 of which no attention was paid to the above 'issues', genuine real-life problems on cars have yet to surface.
    In that connection, here's what 2 year old E10 looks like in a sealed gas tank.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vettehead Mikey View Post
    This is a car forum. I don't leave any type of fuel in any small engine over the winter. They don't have sealed gas systems like cars which makes all the difference in the world. Here's a picture of the inside of my car's gas tank. The gas is two years old. It's had nothing but E10 since the mid-90s Do you see any water, phase separation or corrosion?


    gas-tank-jpg
    If you want to argue that gas stations sell precontaminated gas, off you go, good luck.

  10. #25
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Columbus, NC/NE Georgia
    Posts
    2,293
    Corvette(s)
    1997 boosted silver coupe
    Post Thanks / Like
    Rides
    0

    Default

    If you would have read the scholarly articles, you would have noticed they consistently mentioned large tanks, ie. 6000 gallons. The point was the water is in the gas before you pump it.
    As it is already present, there is nothing you can do at the consumer level to prevent it. At the end of the day, the reality is; we have two choices, accept it or ignore it.

    If you want to debate them, write them and correct their errors.
    Whoosh, and blur

  11. #26
    Member LLC5's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Wa.
    Posts
    2,226
    Corvette(s)
    98 black 6spd convert.
    Post Thanks / Like
    Rides
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kpic View Post
    If you would have read the scholarly articles, you would have noticed they consistently mentioned large tanks, ie. 6000 gallons. The point was the water is in the gas before you pump it.
    As it is already present, there is nothing you can do at the consumer level to prevent it. At the end of the day, the reality is; we have two choices, accept it or ignore it.

    If you want to debate them, write them and correct their errors.


    Our Tech Line support always advises us to educate our customers on the advantages of Top Tier fuel AND purchasing their Top Tier from a high volume seller so as to minimize the contamination of fuel from their storage tanks. There is still a fair amount of driveability issues out there, and almost all of them are related to the E-10, winter oxygenated fuels, and carbon build up.
    Master Technician

    25+ year ASE Master Certified Tech

    22+ year Honda Master Tech

  12. #27
    Member Vettehead Mikey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Not that far from Ottawa
    Posts
    3,487
    Corvette(s)
    1973 Coupe
    Post Thanks / Like
    Rides
    0

    Default

    Not that stories of leaking underground tanks are new or a function of E10, but how often has anyone actually gotten a load of water contaminated gas? Me? Never. Probably a higher probability of finding a dead mouse in my McD coffee.

    McDonald's coffee cup contained dead mouse, Fredericton man says - New Brunswick - CBC News

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Similar Threads

  1. Free car looking a little better!!!
    By ParisTNDude in forum C4 General Discussion
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 08-09-11, 07:21 PM
  2. Free VIN# Look Up ?
    By CAJUN C4 in forum C4 Technical and Performance
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 07-21-09, 05:12 PM
  3. Replies: 3
    Last Post: 12-30-07, 11:15 AM
  4. Replies: 3
    Last Post: 12-30-07, 11:14 AM
  5. Replies: 5
    Last Post: 12-30-07, 11:14 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •