PDA

View Full Version : Project Anti-Ken-A Very Low Budget 350 build



Tom Bryant
03-03-03, 07:31 PM
While I was working on my other project, a mild custom '69 C10 Stepside, I decided to pull the distributor and intake so I could more easily paint the firewall back to the original yellow. I bought this project as a basket case but I do remember this engine running when It was in the donor truck.

I soon found out that I could not turn the engine far enough to line up the timing marks. After trying various things and pulling the distributor and intake it still hit a stopping point. I pulled the valve covers and bounced all of the valves with a hammer. No stuck valves so off came the heads. #3 and #6 cylinders had a 2" water line in them from water coming in the open intake valves. Obviously someone (brother in law that I bought it from) left it out in the rain with the air cleaner off. The cylinder walls were heavily rusted since the last time this engine would have been ouside was at least 10 years ago. That water sat and rusted until it was gone then his damp shop helped it along.

It was just a 2 bolt out of a '72 Monte with who knows how many miles on it before it was put in the donor truck. Not worth spending money boring. Anyway, now I get to build an engine. The problem is that I don't have any budget for a big time engine project like Ken's. Hense the title Anti-Ken.

The goal here will be to put together a good running 350 for under $500. Nuts you say? Maybe, but in this case I don't require NASCAR tolerances or high tech parts. I need an engine that will perform to new car specs for general transportation but will get up and go when I need to merge or get out in traffic. I will try to follow a course of action that others can follow to freshen up their basic 350s in their older cruiser Corvettes that won't be seeing any severe duty use.

Things I don't need for this engine are forged pistons, cast are just fine; forged crank, alloy heads or heads with high rpm potential, high dollor rods, roller anything, super balanced job, or hundreds of dollors worth of machine work that only a all out racing engine can benefit from.

As you can tell I believe that most street or street/strip engines are overbuilt. If you consider that factory specs engines have went zillions of miles and been exposed to untold abuse and usually lived to talk about it you underestand what I mean.

Here's what I come up with to begin this project after taking apart the bad engine and cruising the shop for parts:

1) '79 Z28 4 bolt block. Std. bore with no appearant wear.
a warranty block removed when almost new. The problem wasn't the block. All it needs is a clean up honing.

2) The crank out of the bad engine is std., std. and only needs a light polishing. Thrust plate is as new and so is the snout. Mics round and std. throughout.

3) The heads off of the bad engine are new enough to have hard seats and have never been ground before. They will be fine for a low to mid range engine after rebuilt.

4) Flex plate is as new and balancer appears ok.

5) Old rods mic near perfect so I'll have them magged and put on the new pistons with new rod bolts.

6) I have an Offy manifold and '66 Holley off of a Chevelle to go on the finished engine.

7) I have iron exhaust manifolds and a complete new chambered exhaust system.

8) The single point distributor needs new bushings and shimmed but I may go electronic

Things I need are pistons, rings, bearings, gaskets, timing set, cam and lifters, valve springs, push rods and oil pump. Other things may pop up.

Well this is where I'll start and I'll post progress reports as it goes. Comments are welcome and yes I do expect to catch flack for the things I won't be doing along the way. Some will probably say that all I need is a dirt garage floor to make this build perfect.

Wish me luck.
Tom

Tom Bryant
03-03-03, 07:35 PM
The other side.

JohnZ
03-03-03, 08:36 PM
Sounds like a fun project! You can paint it up pretty before you put it back in, and it'll probably only run for 100,000 miles! :Steer

Ken
03-03-03, 08:54 PM
Hey, it's only a little rusty Tom. :L

"Project: Anti-Ken" eh? :eyerole It ain't like I got a lotta money, I'm just gonna spend what I do have before I die. ;LOL

_ken :w

Tom Bryant
03-03-03, 09:45 PM
Originally posted by JohnZ
Sounds like a fun project! You can paint it up pretty before you put it back in, and it'll probably only run for 100,000 miles! :Steer

That's what I think John. My bro in law rebuilt this engine with a can of Chevy orange and chrome accessories. Didn't work too well as the timing gear only had about 20% of the nylon left on it. :eyerole I found pieces everywhere. I'm amazed that it hadn't jumped time yet. I could almost take the chain off without removing the cam gear. :L

Tom

DkBG
03-03-03, 10:23 PM
Tom , I think you should use that Smoky Yunick manifold hanging on the wall , just because it's so unique . Cliff

impala
03-03-03, 10:40 PM
Hello Tom,

I have a new, in the package Cloyes Heavy Duty Double Roller Timing Gear Speed Set I want to contribute. I was going to use it on a engine project last Spring but decided to go with a crate engine instead.

Too much stuff in the garage and this will be an early start to spring cleaning. If your block turns out to be junk I have a 3970010 based long block that needs a rebuild we can work something out on. Theres also a 454 long block out of a Cigarette boat back there.

Send me your address via e-mail and I'll send the Timing Gear Set via UPS.

Eugene

Tom Bryant
03-04-03, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by DkBG
Tom , I think you should use that Smoky Yunick manifold hanging on the wall , just because it's so unique . Cliff

Cliff If I used that unique Yunick Smokey Ram I 'm affraid I would have to build a liittle more engine. They restored one of these manifolds in one of the magazines a couple months ago. Then they put it on a dyno engine and it made some fantastic numbers. Smokey always said it was the strongest mid range manifold you could use.

Tom

UB2 SLOW
03-04-03, 03:36 PM
It ain't like I got a lotta money, I'm just gonna spend what I do have before I die.


I agree with you Ken. I cant spend it when I am dead, so I plan on spending prior to that. :D

Tom Bryant
03-04-03, 03:39 PM
Eugene,

Thanks for the offer of the timing set. That would be perfect and better than a standard OEM. I'll email you. I think I should give you someting for it. We'll work it out.

The block I'm using is a 3970010 and as I said it was nearly new when I got it. I oiled it up and put it in an engine crate about 20 some years ago. It was really clean in and out until last winter. The crate sat behind my table saw all winter while I was finishing the inside of the garage. Yea I know...I could have moved it. Isn't saw dust a protectorant?

Here are a few pics of the subject of this experiment.

The block out of it's 20+ year cacoon.

Tom Bryant
03-04-03, 03:49 PM
The main bearing bores are perfectly in alignment. I torqued the caps and checked around the circumference at each 90 degree intervals with the straight edge and feeler guages.

Tom Bryant
03-04-03, 03:55 PM
Using a snap guage you can feel if the main bearing bores are out of round. All is good.

Tom Bryant
03-04-03, 04:06 PM
Smokey said once to lay your straight edge on the deck. Shine a bright light on the back side and look for any light between the straight edge and the deck. No light showing, no low areas or uneven surfaces. No decking required. Or something like that. I check front and rear and across the bores. Also several places side to side and diagonal.

Both decks are flat as Mother Earth before Columbus. I guess we have a block. Now I need to clean that pig up.

impala
03-04-03, 08:08 PM
Tom,

I hope you keep posting pictures as your engine build moves forward. Looking at them will give me something to do while waiting for spring.

There's no need to pay anything for the Timing Gear set.

Well...... perhaps you can buy me a drink if our paths ever cross.

Eugene

Ken
03-04-03, 09:41 PM
Tom, nice to see you got the hang of the camera, now we gotta get you some storage space so we can view the pictures without having to click attachments. :L

_ken :w

Tom Bryant
03-05-03, 12:42 AM
I know Ken. Maybe I'll get around to that this week since I'll be posting a lot of pics. I do tend to put things off a little. :L

Tom

Ken
03-05-03, 12:59 AM
Geez, that reminds me; I've got some pictures of my work today, waiting to be cleaned-up. They've been sitting open since about five o'oclock because I was waiting for the sun to go down so I could see them clearly on the screen. :L

_ken :w

Tom Bryant
03-06-03, 09:04 PM
Here is the intake that Cliff (DkBG) would like me to use. It does look cool but I fear it's a bit much for a mild engine. It doesn't have exhaust heat for those cold mornings and would require at least a double pumper because of the large plenum. I'd also need serious heads and cam and higher compression. I'll build an engine just for this manifold someday Cliff.

Edelbrock SY1 Smokey Ram designed by Smokey Yunick
http://corvetteactioncenter.com/forums/gallery/data/500/83Smokey_Ram-026s-med.jpg Sorry. the next few picture were lost with the old member's gallery. I can repost them if anyone wants to see them.

Ken
03-06-03, 09:11 PM
Oh yeah! You've got a prize piece there Tom. :upthumbs

_ken :w

Tom Bryant
03-06-03, 09:33 PM
Ken,

Since I have this picture thing down I'll add a couple more. This is the intake I'll use. It's a single plane Offy 360 degree but Offenhauser says it's good off idle to 5500 rpm. It has carb heat and a cast in boss for a '60s style GM choke thermostat that will hook right up to the Chevy Holley I have. Since I have the manifold I'll give it a try. I can always change it later if it's dead on the bottom end.

http://corvetteactioncenter.com/forums/gallery/data/500/83Offy-025s-med.jpg

Tom Bryant
03-06-03, 09:37 PM
Or I could run these and carry a BIG fire extinguisher. :L

http://corvetteactioncenter.com/forums/gallery/data/500/834_97s-027s-med.jpg

DkBG
03-06-03, 09:39 PM
Hey Tom , I found the stock cam out of my 72 Z28 . You can use it if you want . Cliff Ps . It would go nice with that other manifold .

Tom Bryant
03-06-03, 09:58 PM
Thanks Cliff. That might just work out. Is that the 3972178 solid lifter cam? The '72 LT1 was a 9:1 engine. That's about where I should be. I wonder how that would work with my combo. Anyone know what the 1st gear ratio is in a turbo 400? I have a 3.73 rear axle too but I'm wondering if the overlap would kill the bottom end.

What did you replace it with?

Anyone know the chamber size on '72 350 2 bbl heads. I'm thinking 76.

Tom

Eric
03-06-03, 10:17 PM
Originally posted by Tom Bryant
Anyone know what the 1st gear ratio is in a turbo 400? I have a 3.73 rear axle too but I'm wondering if the overlap would kill the bottom end....
Tom

Yep, the ratios on a TH400 are 2.48(1), 1.48(2), and 1.00(3).

Nice pics by the way;).

-Eric

Ken
03-07-03, 02:12 AM
Originally posted by Tom Bryant http://corvetteactioncenter.com/forums/gallery/data/500/834_97s-027s-med.jpg

Man, I haven't seen one of those in a long time. :upthumbs

JohnZ
03-07-03, 02:15 PM
I haven't seen Stromberg 97's in a long time either - here's a pic of 97's on a '57 Caddy that I stuffed in a '51 Ford (set back 10") back in 1960:

http://image1.villagephotos.com/pubimage.asp?id_=415768

Of course, you could always bolt on a set of these (deficit financing definitely required) :D

http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/pubimage.asp?id_=1504204

:Steer

Tom Bryant
03-07-03, 02:31 PM
Ken,

I have a pair of Mickey Thompson whitewall slicks downstairs too. A full 7 inches wide!. I used to run them on my '59 but they weren't too good in the rain. I have a picture around here someplace. I'll have to scan it and post it.

You are welcome to use them when you take your car drag racing if you want. :gap

Tom Bryant
03-07-03, 03:21 PM
John,

Those 4 and 2 more were on this fantastic swap meet find a few years ago for only $200. I figured I could make 4 good carbs for the Chevy manifold out of the 6. Might look cool on the '59 with no hood or find a scooped hood and just cut a hole for the carbs with chrome pots to stick through. I wonder what the points deduct would be for that? :L With the big nostalgia craze in street rodding now rebuildable 97 cores are selling for as high as $150. each. :eek

Weiand Drag Star for Nailhead Buick

http://corvetteactioncenter.com/forums/gallery/data/500/83Drag_Star-028s-med.jpg

That's one beautiful Caddy. Love the silver block. Must have been a fun ride. I stuck a Chrysler Fire Power hemi out of a '56 300 in a '47 Ford Club Coupe when I was 17. Another pic I'll have to dig out. I don't know about those Webers. It's about 18 miles to work and there are only about 6 gas stations on the way. Might not make it.

Tom Bryant
03-07-03, 06:11 PM
I found out that I didn't have to work last night so since I had already got my 9 hours sleep I stayed up and researched parts. I looked through every catalog I have and searched every parts site I could find. Ended up that Summit seems to be the best over all for price and selection.

As I said before, I was going with cast pistons. Well one of the best deals I found was at Speedway Motors for a set of 8 all within 4 grams in weight of each other for $69. These are flat top. I don't want to use the original type dished ones even though I found them a couple dollars cheaper. Flat tops will give a smoother flame travel and once I smoothe the edges of the valve reliefs and polish the tops they will be very detonation resistant as well.

When I got to the Summit listings I found the Feder Mogel Sterling brand hypereutectic pistons for $9.39 each or $75.12 a set. That is cheaper than many of the cast pistons I found. So I'll be stepping up the the Sterling pistons. As for rings Moly are only about 14 dollars more than cast and are far superior so I'll be using the Sealed Power Molys.

I then found a Summit rebuild kit for $199.95 that used the same rings and pistons so I left it open in a window and started comparing each component in the Summit catalog and on other sites. Their kit had a few things I didn't need like a gasket set and freeze plugs. About the only thing I don't have in stock is head gaskets and an intake set. My heads were used with dished pistons and I think they are 76 cc chambers. I need to do a measurement this weekend. This makes me curious as to the compression ratio of that engine. Must have actually been 8.0 or even 7.something. Here is the tech info on the Sterling flat tops:

* Compression ratio: 8.24:1 (76cc heads), 8.55:1 (72cc heads), 8.88:1 (68cc heads), 9.24:1 (64cc heads), 9.96:1 (58cc heads)

As you can see they list an 8.24:1 ratio with 76cc heads and a 9.24:1 ratio with 64cc heads. I find this interesting in that the '70 350/300 horsepower was listed in the GM literature as having a 10.25:1 ratio and it is a flat top piston with 64cc chamber engine. Could there be fact to the belief that GM over rated the Compression ratios on their engines? This would seem to validate that belief.

Instead of the kit pieces I decided to use Clevite 77 main and rod bearings (mains were $2./set more and rods were about a buck apiece cheaper). I also selected a Melling high volumn oil pump and a Melling steel intermediate shaft with steel coupling (half the price of an ARP). So I came in under the kit price and upgraded a few things.

The head gaskets I'll use are a GM Performance part number 3830711 steel shim .026 compressed thickness. I need all the help I can get in the compression ratio department so this thinner gasket will be a good choice.

When I get these parts in and get the short block assembled I'll post a complete list of part numbers and prices. Now I need to start thinking on that cam Cliff offered vs. what I had in mind. So far I'm right on schedule on the budget.

Tom

DkBG
03-07-03, 09:52 PM
Tom , that cam is the solid lifter factory unit . They weren't too far off the 30-30 cams . My Camaro also had a 3;73 rear end with a turbo 400 . I believe your right about the combustion chamber sizes . I changed my head castings to the service angle plug castings with 64 cc chambers and the thin shim head gaskets . It was supposed to give a 10.5 to 1 compression ratio . Of course I had no way of checking that though . I don't remember much about the cam I went with , just that it was a Manly . I used all the stock parts in my heads . Let me know if you want to check out that cam . Cliff

Ken
03-07-03, 09:59 PM
http://corvetteobsession3.homestead.com/files/CACstuff/2003_March/expensivecarbs.jpg :L

Tom, you have a wonderful collection of intake manifolds. Haven't seen some of that stuff in sooooooo... long. :cool

Sounds like you are well under way with your plan. I have nothing but good things to say about my dealings with Summit so far. Support has been good, returns haven't been a problem, credit for returned merchandise was promptly applied, etc. As I said, nothing bad (so far). ;)

What is the time frame you're looking at regarding completion of this part of the truck project?

_ken :w

Jack
03-07-03, 10:35 PM
Originally posted by Tom Bryant
I then found a Summit rebuild kit for $199.95 that used the same rings and pistons so I left it open in a window and started comparing each component in the Summit catalog and on other sites. Their kit had a few things I didn't need like a gasket set and freeze plugs. About the only thing I don't have in stock is head gaskets and an intake set. My heads were used with dished pistons and I think they are 76 cc chambers. I need to do a measurement this weekend. This makes me curious as to the compression ratio of that engine. Must have actually been 8.0 or even 7.something. Here is the tech info on the Sterling flat tops:
Tom

TOM:
For what its worth .... Carolinas Auto Supply House www.autosupplyhouse.com 1-800-438-4070 sells their "super engine kit" for 350 sbc pretty cheap ... latest price $176.39. Includes pistons, rings, cam, lifters, oil pump, main&rod&cam bearings, timing set, gasket set & freeze plugs. I've used em ... good quality ... not race car ... but good solid quality.

-edit- I think their OE type pushrods (pioneer) are about 75 cents each.

-edit again- Tom, call em & check ... I deleted/added ... mixed/matched/upgraded stuff in kits I've bought from em ... they have inexpensive hi-po cams ... HV oil pumps ... 4 or 5 different brands of pistons ... maybe you could delete the gaskets & freeze plugs etc & add pushrods & valve springs etc ... they're pretty easy to work with ... email me if you want my acct # to use when you call ... just a thought.

Also, I've gotten some great deals on trw, pioneer etc from http://www.erwparts.com/ They're in Ft. Lauderdale contact Anthony Ciarocchi aciarrocchi@erwparts.com ERW 1 800 940 4379 ext.102
JACK:gap

JohnZ
03-08-03, 09:58 PM
Speaking of Nailhead Buicks, here's my '53 Vette (E53F100036), in 1959 (when nobody wanted them) with a '57 Buick nailhead, 3x2's, Harman-Collins roller cam, and a '37 LaSalle 3-speed and 4.11 axle (3x2's later replaced with a 6-71 blower and dual WCFB's); in that form, it ran 12.20's. Yup, the good old days on Woodward :Steer

http://image1.villagephotos.com/pubimage.asp?id_=415701

Here's the interior (note three pedals :D ):

http://image1.villagephotos.com/pubimage.asp?id_=415703

Here's the interior of the '51 Ford with the 10" set-back Caddy - it was a terrific "sleeper" in 1959:

http://image1.villagephotos.com/pubimage.asp?id_=415767


:Steer :bu :D

Ken
03-08-03, 10:32 PM
Goodness gracious, talk about feelings of NOSTALGIA! And I'll bet that Ford was a sleeper for 1959 John, there was never one like that where I grew up. Pretty impressive for 1959 if you ask me. :upthumbs

_ken :w

Tom Bryant
03-09-03, 01:36 PM
What a couple of cool cars. You are so right about there being a time when '53 Corvettes or any of the first 3 years weren't worth anything. Nobody would have ever believed that they would someday be collectable. That explains why that '53 custom at Barrett-Jackson was built in '59 also.

I don't see #36 in the '53 Registry (http://www.corvetteactioncenter.com/specs/1953/53registry.php) . Do you know what became of it? Can you imagine taking that car to Flint in June looking just like it does in your picture?

I'll bet that Ford hauled too. Must have suprised more than a few hot dogs on Woodward.

Tom

Tom Bryant
03-09-03, 02:26 PM
Thanks for the links Jack. I'll check them out tomorrow night at work. My dial up is too slow to load their catalog in any reasonable time.

Tom

Tom Bryant
03-09-03, 03:21 PM
Here is some cam info to ponder. First is a discription of the 178 LT1 cam that Cliff offered. When reading these remember that Chevy did use this in a 9.0:1 engine rather successfully ('72 LT1) although I would say that the 178 would be better suited to a 10.0:1 or better engine.

3972178 Mechanical Flat Tappet
This mechanical flat tappet is used on the 70-71 Corvette and Camaro LT-1. It is a good all around street mechanical cam (ID#3972182). The duration at lash point in degrees (intake/exhaust) is 300/312; duration at .050" tappet lift (intake/exhaust) is 242/254; and maximum lift with 1.5:1 rocker ratio (intake/exhaust) is 435/455. Valve lash is 024/030 and lobe centerline is 116 degrees


12353917 Camshaft Kits
8.0 - 9.5 to compression ratio, 2200 - 2600 cruise rpm. Basic rpm range 1500 - 4000, 6500 rpm attainable with proper valve springs and lifters. All model small-block Chevrolet V8 1955-66 California, 1955-68 with federal emissions. All non-emission trucks, and 1966-92 for off-highway applications.
Technical Notes: These are hydraulic flat tappet camshaft kits. The duration at .050 lift (intake/exhaust) is 204/214 degrees, and the valve lift is .420"/.442". Lobe centerline is 112. This camshaft kit is designed and manufactured by Crane Cam Co.®. It contains one camshaft and 16 tappets.


12353918 Camshaft Kits
All "Marine" and off-road small-block Chevrolet V8. Compression ratio 8.75 - 10.5 to 1, 2600 - 3000 cruise rpm, basic rpm range 2000 - 4500 rpm, 6500 rpm attainable with proper valve springs and lifters.
Technical Notes: These are hydraulic flat tappet camshaft kits. The duration at .050 lift (intake/exhaust) is 214/224 degrees, and the valve lift is .442"/.465". Lobe centerline is 112. This camshaft kit is designed and manufactured by Crane Cam Cov.®. It contains one camshaft and 16 tappets

The 918 cam more closely matches the cruise rpm of my vehicle with the 3.73 gears and I like the specs. But then the LT1 might be fun too. Mechanical cams do not intimidate me. In fact I have never installed a performance hydraulic cam in any vehicle of my own to date. This engine may be a first...maybe.
I know that there are a multitude of excellent grinds and companies making cams and we all have our favorites.

JohnZ
03-09-03, 07:00 PM
Originally posted by Tom Bryant

I don't see #36 in the '53 Registry (http://www.corvetteactioncenter.com/specs/1953/53registry.php) . Do you know what became of it? Can you imagine taking that car to Flint in June looking just like it does in your picture?

Tom

Not in the registry 'cuz it's history - I sold it in 1961, and the guy I sold it to killed himself in it about six months later (he removed the roll bar, didn't wear the seat belts either) when he slid it into a curb and rolled it several times - car was totaled.:cry

Tom Bryant
03-09-03, 08:23 PM
That's too bad for the car and the guy. Today someone would be "rebuilding" it even if they had to replace everything except the serial number plate. I guess we should put it the registry as wrecked and presumed scrapped in 1961 and maybe a discription of it prior to it's demise. At least it would be accounted for.

Tom

Tom Bryant
03-09-03, 11:00 PM
or at least sometimes confusing. The technical data listed for the flat top pistons I'm considering is missing two important items necessary to know when calculating compression ratio; deck hieght and head gasket compressed thickness. After doing some figures it is obvious that they were not using a zero deck height (piston top absolutely level with the block deck) figure for their calculations. This is not unusual as new production engines and most rebuilds are assembled with the piston "down in the hole" a certain amount for safety's sake. To gain zero deck height and the increase in static compression ratio that comes with it, a block must be assembled with the pistons run up to top dead center (tdc) and a measurement taken to determine how far the piston top is below the deck. Then a cut is made on the deck to remove that amount of material to bring everything up to zero. A zero deck height gets the piston top dangerously close to the surface of the head at tdc. In this case the only clearance between the two is the compressed thickness of the head gasket. Ok for racing engines where the crank bores and block decks have been carefully machined to ensure that they are exactly parallel and that no piston is actually sticking up higher than the deck at tdc. For a street engine this would be a recipe for desaster.

So in the case of the piston under consideration (compression ratio specs listed again below) I would have to say that these ratios were figured with a rather thick composit head gasket and a fair amount of deck height. Probably no decking of a stock spec block.

Sterling Hyereutectic flat top pistons
* Compression ratio: 8.24:1 (76cc heads), 8.55:1 (72cc heads), 8.88:1 (68cc heads), 9.24:1 (64cc heads), 9.96:1 (58cc heads)

In the previously discussed example of a 350/300 horse engine I plugged in the numbers for a rather thick (.058) composite head gasket and zero deck height and come up with around 11.0:1. This tells me that the deck height must be substancial on a production engine to get it down to 10.25. I don't know how Sterling come up with the 9.24 ratio but it looks like Chevy is closer to right after all. I suppose that it's possible that these blocks were machined at GM with extra thickness left on the decks. I wish I would have measured the old engine before dissassembly just for a reference point. Could it also be possible that these pistons are machined short? I hope not.

Anyhow, using the formula from the Tools tab at the top of this page I figure that with the .026 thickness head gasket and a zero deck height I will have a 9.59:1 compression ratio. I calculated in the real volumn of the heads also. This afternoon I measured the chamber volumn and came up with 78ccs. A tad more than the 76cc specs but production tolerences come into play. Now when the valves are ground they will receed into the chambers a little and there is a slight amount of unwanted material protruding into the combustion chambers that has a ragged edge on it. This is an excellent place to form a hot spot and cause detonation. So this will have to be smoothed over. This small amount of massaging will increase the chamber volumn even more. Won't know how much until I measure it. I'll try to keep all of the chambers real close to the same. I'm more concerned here with eliminating detonation than reshaping and polishing the chambers. After all, these heads are nothing to brag about from a performance standpoint.

I also will not know what the deck height is until I assemble a rod to a piston and put it on the crank for a measurement. I'm hoping that my final ratio falls in between 8.75 and 9.25. I would like to see an actual "real" compression ratio of 9.0:1. If it ends up being really low I will know before I start on the heads. I'm going to assemble the short block before starting on the heads. I can always mill the heads slighty to bring the compression ratio up to a respectable level. Of course this will cost more and the intake manifold also has to be milled to fit the new head angles.

I could always switch to a pair of 64cc heads but that would be marginable for pump gas. I really want to keep it in the unleaded regular or middle grade level. I could always go back to dished pistons. If I did change heads I have a pair of 64cc ones on a complete 1970 350/300 stored in an engine crate at my dads. They would have to be converted to hardened seats and I really think that the flat top pistons are more important for a detonation free engine that gaining a little compression.

The formula for calculating compression ratio in the Tools area above requires a couple other calculations also. These formulas are also in the Tools area. You need to calculate the head's chamber volumn and the volumn of the cylinder as well as the volumn of the compressed head gasket. Remember, a comressed head gasket is just a really short cylinder and uses the same formula. Also when you measure the deck height you calculate it's volumn using the volumn of a cylinder formula and, since this amount is above the piston, it now becomes part of the combustion chamber. Add this volumn to the combustion chamber volumn and subtract it from the cylinder volumn.


Well that's about it for now. So far my total investment in this project is still $.00 (except for the sore brain) but that is about to change. I need to get some parts ordered.

Tom

JohnZ
03-11-03, 01:35 PM
Tom, many years of experience with SBC's tells me that most factory-original engines have the pistons .020"-.025" down in the hole; I think the published/advertised factory numbers for compression ratio are calculated assuming zero-deck and the .020" steel shim gaskets, as I've never seen an original engine that measured as high as the advertised number.
:beer

Tom Bryant
03-11-03, 02:11 PM
.025 deck height would give me a 9.1:1 compression ratio. Looks like I'm right on target.

Tom

Jack
03-11-03, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by Tom Bryant
So in the case of the piston under consideration (compression ratio specs listed again below) I would have to say that these ratios were figured with a rather thick composit head gasket and a fair amount of deck height. Probably no decking of a stock spec block.

Sterling Hyereutectic flat top pistons
* Compression ratio: 8.24:1 (76cc heads), 8.55:1 (72cc heads), 8.88:1 (68cc heads), 9.24:1 (64cc heads), 9.96:1 (58cc heads) Tom

TOM:
SpeedPro/SealedPower offers a hyper piston that seems to have identical specs at nearly all CR's as above ... it is a flat top w/ 4 valve reliefs ... compression distance is 1.560" ... deck (down in the hole on stock 9.025" high block is 0.025" ... dome volume = minus 5cc ... part number H345NP. They also offer same w/ only 2 VR's ... increase in CR (beyond 4VR version) ranges about 0.3-0.6 ... but still has dome volume = minus 5cc ... part number H631P. Their catalog X-3009 states "Compression ratios in this catalog were calculated with a gasket thickness of .038." BTW, I've heard Sterling is subsidiary/knockoff of SpeedPro/SealedPower ... dunno if there's anything to that or not.

When down in the hole about 0.025"... optimum quench height can be achieved using thin steel shim gaskets ranging 0.015"- 0.025" when compressed. IMHO, best combo of this sort would optimize both flame travel and quench via 2 valve relief pistons & shim gaskets. With std 2VR H631P & shim gaskets on a stock 9.025” deck & 76cc heads ... I’m figuring 8.9:1 - 9.0:1 CR.


Originally posted by Tom Bryant 12353917 Camshaft Kits
8.0 - 9.5 to compression ratio, 2200 - 2600 cruise rpm. Basic rpm range 1500 - 4000, 6500 rpm attainable with proper valve springs and lifters. All model small-block Chevrolet V8 1955-66 California, 1955-68 with federal emissions. All non-emission trucks, and 1966-92 for off-highway applications.
Technical Notes: These are hydraulic flat tappet camshaft kits. The duration at .050 lift (intake/exhaust) is 204/214 degrees, and the valve lift is .420"/.442". Lobe centerline is 112. This camshaft kit is designed and manufactured by Crane Cam Co.®. It contains one camshaft and 16 tappets. Tom [/B]

That sounds like a good cam for what you're trying to do ... routinely referred to around here as an "RV" cam ... pretty smooth idle. Same (camshaft only) specs available as SpeedPro/SealedPower pn CS1014R, Clevite pn S2019, Perfect Circle pn 2291730, Wolverine Blue Racer (Crane’s red-headed stepchild) pn WG1103.

JACK:gap

Tom Bryant
03-11-03, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by Jack
TOM:
SpeedPro/SealedPower offers a hyper piston that seems to have identical specs at nearly all CR's as above ... it is a flat top w/ 4 valve reliefs ... compression distance is 1.560" ... deck (down in the hole on stock 9.025" high block is 0.025" ... dome volume = minus 5cc ... part number H345NP. They also offer same w/ only 2 VR's ... increase in CR (beyond 4VR version) ranges about 0.3-0.6 ... but still has dome volume = minus 5cc ... part number H631P. Their catalog X-3009 states "Compression ratios in this catalog were calculated with a gasket thickness of .038." BTW, I've heard Sterling is subsidiary/knockoff of SpeedPro/SealedPower ... dunno if there's anything to that or not.



JACK:gap

Speed Pro, Sealed Power, Sterling are all Federal Mogul brands and I'm fairly sure that they all come out of the F-M foundry in South Bend that I deliver liqued nitrogen to regularly. That's why I can't understand why the Speed Pro and the Sterling 4 relief pistons are priced so differently. Maybe the Speed Pro are lighter. If I hadn't imposed such a strict budget on myself for this project I would prefer the 2 relief pistons. I'll probably stick to the Sterling for the price advantage. Now when it's time to do an engine for the '59 that will be a different story. :D I wonder about the long term durabilty of the really thin shim gaskets. Chevy used to have a .018 stainless steel one for race engines.

They probably figure the compression ratios the same though so the info you provided helps clear that up. Thanks. The cam thing is still up in the air. That 917 cam would be good I'm sure but the criusing rpm at 60 mph range is 4-500 rpms low for my 3.73 rear gears. The 918 seems a little better matched in that area. Throttle response might be a little quicker with the 917 but with 3.73s and a 2.48 low 1st gear in the turbo 400 it should hit 2000 nearly as fast. Decisions, decisions.

I have a friend that has a '72 short C10 and he put the engine in it that he was going to use in his '69 Corvette project. He's pretty close to John Lingenfelter and John selected the cam with the Corvette and it's mods in mind. The cam isn't working out with the stock convertor in the truck so he has been talking to Comp Cams. I'm curious as to what he will end up with. I may hold off til I see.

Tom

Tom Bryant
03-11-03, 03:54 PM
Originally posted by Ken


Sounds like you are well under way with your plan. I have nothing but good things to say about my dealings with Summit so far. Support has been good, returns haven't been a problem, credit for returned merchandise was promptly applied, etc. As I said, nothing bad (so far). ;)

What is the time frame you're looking at regarding completion of this part of the truck project?

_ken :w

Sorry Ken,
I missed your question earlier. To answer precisely I would have to say this spring. :L But seriously folks I do want to get this out of the way so I can get the front brakes and rear end rebuild finished. Then I can concentrate on the bodywork to some extent this summer. I don't care if I get it painted this year but I want to get the major stuff out of the way and actually drive it some. I would like to get the bugs all out of it and blow it apart for paint this fall before it gets cold again. Then I can assemble it next winter paying close attention to detail. At least that is the plan. I started working on the '59 trailer damage repair and would like to see some progress on that too.

Tom

Jack
03-11-03, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by Tom Bryant
12353918 Camshaft Kits
All "Marine" and off-road small-block Chevrolet V8. Compression ratio 8.75 - 10.5 to 1, 2600 - 3000 cruise rpm, basic rpm range 2000 - 4500 rpm, 6500 rpm attainable with proper valve springs and lifters.
Technical Notes: These are hydraulic flat tappet camshaft kits. The duration at .050 lift (intake/exhaust) is 214/224 degrees, and the valve lift is .442"/.465". Lobe centerline is 112. This camshaft kit is designed and manufactured by Crane Cam Cov.®. It contains one camshaft and 16 tappets

The 918 cam more closely matches the cruise rpm of my vehicle with the 3.73 gears and I like the specs. But then the LT1 might be fun too. Mechanical cams do not intimidate me. In fact I have never installed a performance hydraulic cam in any vehicle of my own to date. This engine may be a first...maybe.
I know that there are a multitude of excellent grings and companies makeing cams and we all have our favorites.

TOM:
918 cam has essentially same specs as Clevite pn 229-1988, SpeedPro/Sealed Power pn CS1106R, Wolverine pn WG1159.

Maybe Sterling (or Badger or Enginetech or Dynagear etc) has an equivalent to H631P or a similar 2VR? I dunno ... haven't found the interchange links for those.
JACK:gap

Tom Bryant
03-11-03, 04:17 PM
The friend I mentioned above just told me he had a .040 deck when he assembled his engine. No doubt that I'm going to get the short block together before I commit to heads and cam.

Tom

Tom Bryant
03-11-03, 04:23 PM
BTW Jack,

I have a Wolverine in my '59. It is from the '60s when Wolverine was their own company. 293 duration and .428 lift with solid lifters and 1.5 rockers. Basically a Duntov with extra lift. I always thought that 1.6 rockers would really wake that cam up. It has a nice sound through the off road exhaust.

Jack
03-11-03, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by Tom Bryant
The friend I mentioned above just told me he had a .040 deck when he assembled his engine. No doubt that I'm going to get the short block together before I commit to heads and cam.
Tom

I couldn't agree more Tom. Some pistons are virtually same as one another ... while the published compression distance may be 1.540 for one and 1.560 for another. For instance H345P+ CD = 1.540, 345NP CD = 1.540, H345NP CD = 1.560 ... all flat w/ 4VR. Using stock block, crank & rods ... all-important CD determines how far down in the hole. Depending on how/where you measure, piston rock in bore can cause variance.

BTW, have an L82 cam cloned by wolverine in my 388 ... wg1170.
JACK:gap

Tom Bryant
03-11-03, 11:02 PM
The L82 has always been one of my favorite cams in a 350. I corrected the duration I stated for the cam in my 283. It was 293. amazing what a 17 hour work day will do to the mind, what little I have. :L

Tom Bryant
03-16-03, 11:51 PM
Cliff (DkBG), his brother Steve, friend Larry and I went to Vettefest yesterday. I looked for a few things but all I came up with was a $7.00 chrome timing cover. :L Hard to clean up the old one for that amount. I found a few of the things on my list but they were all higher priced than Summit. I was thinking that this might be a good excuse to make a road trip to Akron. I have never been in the Summit store.

We met Impala (Eugene) there. He said to look for the guy with the grey hair and black leather jacket. It would have been easier to find somone without grey hair in that crowd. :L We had a nice visit and I'm looking forward to seeing Eugene out in his new '63 one of these days.

Also met up with Barb (BBB454) and Kimmy (Corvette Kimmy) at the show. It was nice to meet Kimmy and talk to Barb again. Haven't seen Barb since Sharkfest.

We checked out that LT1 cam when we got back to Cliff's and found that a few of the lobes didn't measure up to specs. I guess I am still in the hunt for the perfect cam.

offshore
03-17-03, 12:25 AM
THE MANIFOLD IN THIS PIC IS A DUAL PLANE THE PIC BEFORE IS A SINGLE PLANE.

offshore
03-17-03, 12:30 AM
Originally posted by Tom Bryant
Here is the intake that Cliff (DkBG) would like me to use. It does look cool but I fear it's a bit much for a mild engine. It doesn't have exhaust heat for those cold mornings and would require at least a double pumper because of the large plenum. I'd also need serious heads and cam and higher compression. I'll build an engine just for this manifold someday Cliff.

Edelbrock SY1 Smokey Ram designed by Smokey Yunick
http://corvetteactioncenter.com/forums/gallery/data/500/83Smokey_Ram-026s-med.jpg

SINGLE PLANE OPEN PLENUM

offshore
03-17-03, 12:48 AM
UNLESS YOU WANT TO RUIN YOUR NEW PROJECT ENGINE "DO NOT USE ANY USED CAM OR LIFTERS!) DON'T USE A USED CAM & NEW LIFTERS/ DON'T USE A NEWCAM AND OLD LIFTERS THEY WILL ALL FAIL ALMOST INSTANTLY! WITH IN 100 MI. THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN USE A USED CAM IS IF YOU HAVE THE LIFTERS THAT THE CAM WAS RUN WITH FROM THE START AND EACH LIFTER HAS TO GO ON THE SAME LOBE IT CAME OFF! ONE WRONG LOBE TO LIFTER SAY GOODBYE UNLESS YUOR DEALING WITH A VERY SPECIAL GRIND ALWAYS BUY NEW. THERE CHEEP. ps I LOVE YOUR FOUR SINGEL BRL.MANIFOLD I'D REBUILD THE CARBS SYNC.THEM AND HAVE FUN

offshore
03-17-03, 12:53 AM
Originally posted by JohnZ
I haven't seen Stromberg 97's in a long time either - here's a pic of 97's on a '57 Caddy that I stuffed in a '51 Ford (set back 10") back in 1960:

http://image1.villagephotos.com/pubimage.asp?id_=415768

Of course, you could always bolt on a set of these (deficit financing definitely required) :D

http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/pubimage.asp?id_=1504204

:Steer LOVE YOUR STYLE!

offshore
03-17-03, 01:06 AM
] WHATS THE COMPRESSION HEIGHT OF THE PISTONS?

Tom Bryant
03-17-03, 10:26 PM
Hi Offshore,

I don't know the exact compression height of those pistons yet. I need to send that email today. I have a feeling it is low from the cr ratio specs they provided. I'm thinking I'll need to go with a 64cc head but I'll make that decision when they are installed and I have actual deck height measurements. I agree on the used cam topic too. I have successfully used a used cam before but not as a rule. I have a '60s grind Wolverine that was used and it has been in my '59 for 25 years or so. I put quite a few road miles on it before I parked the car and it always held lash. I used a good set of solids off of a Duntov and lightly scuffed them with worn 400 grit emery. If the cam is of good material and the spring pressures are not heavy this will usually work as the lifters and cam will get to know each other almost like an original break-in period.. I will feel better about putting in a new cam with a modern grind though.

The Offenhauser 360 degree is often missunderstood as they do things differently than Edelbrock and the rest. It is not a dual plane where you have two layers of runners running over or under the others to equally feed each side of the engine like a stock or Performer intake. It is more like the single plane racing manifolds with a common plenum and all runners run direct to their cylinders without crossing over. As you can see in the picture the ports are in a direct line from the plenum. The runners are curved for length to make it more usable at lower rpms than the straight X type single plane.

The twist in the 360 Degree is that the plenum devider runs the full length of the manifold and completely seperates the right and left banks of the engine except for about a 3/8in hole through the rear of the devider just below a threaded vacuum port. Each side of the intake is a long plenum cavity with the 4 ports for that side exiting straight off of it.

The Smokey Ram is actually a cross Ram design. The plenum floor is several inches wide and flat and only a couple inches below the carb. The sides of the plenum are large open areas with the runners exiting on the valley side and running across the engine to feed the intake ports on the opposite bank. In other words the large box shaped plenum that would be somewhat over the right valve cover has runners that actually feed the left head and visa-versa.


The Stromberg 97 2 bbl carb is the classic hot rod 2bbl. It was used on Ford V8s in the late 30s and was the carb of choice for multiple setups clear into the '60s. Now they are again in high demand for nostalgia builds. Both John's Caddy and my Weiand manifold run 4 Stombedrg 97 2bbls.

Well I'm off to see my wife at the GM store. I'll get some cam prices while I'm there.

Tom

Tom Bryant
03-18-03, 11:41 AM
It was so nice out yesterday, almost 70, that I took the opportunity to clean up my engine removal mess and got that block out in the drive for a good cleaning. Then I dryed it with the air gun and oiled all of the machined surfaces. I run the hone down each cylinder to clean it up so I could see what was in there. I have a little light scoring in #6 about halfway down and in about a 1 inch by 1 inch area. This is probably why this engine was using oil before.

I will bring the micrometers home from work again and see if I can hone this defect out. and still be within specs. I may be looking at a clean up overbore. That won't effect my piston cost but it will add to the bottom line. I'll have to call around to some shops in the area to see what the charge for a .030 bore is.

I'll see if I can get a digital of this too.

Tom

Tom Bryant
03-25-03, 12:49 PM
I had a talk yeaterday with the machinist at a shop close to here and he is getting some prices together. Looks like the .030 overbore will run $130. He was suggesting a kit price for the short block so I told him what I found for piston prices. I think I am making him sharpen his pencil a little. I may be using cast pistons that he supplies if the price is really good. We'll see what he comes up with.

Tom

Tom Bryant
03-26-03, 02:22 PM
I stopped by to see Greg at H&W in Hicksville OH and made him sharpen his pencil a little. He will bore the block .030 for $135. and sell me Silv-o-Lite pistons for $185. This is about ten bucks more than the pistons I had picked out but he will sell me moly rings 5 bucks cheaper plus there will be no shipping charges so it will be about the same as Summit. Also he'll install the rods using a rod heater and cam bearings for $22. That would get my block ready to put the crank in for less than $325. Not bad.

I feel better about buying the pistons from the same guy that does the boring. He uses all Sunnen equipment and I'll be getting the shop tour when I take the block over. I will be out of town in northern MI for a couple days and he is going on vacation for 2 weeks starting Fri so this may be on hold for a while.

I have a feeling that this small bore problem may push the bottom line over the $500. goal. This is not something that would be uncommon if you were doing any older 350 in a C3 for example so this will still be a good example of what to expect when freshening up your old L48 ect.

Tom

Tom Bryant
04-08-03, 12:42 PM
I got the block all cleaned up and ready to take to the machine shop. All of the machined surfaces are clean and oiled. Cliff (DkBG) will be stopping by next Monday and we will throw the block in his Buick truck, er, station wagon, and take it to the shop. This delay in the progress on my engine has been bugging me. Once I decide to do something I like to keep moving.

In the meantime I thought I would post a couple pics of some badly worn engine parts for those that may not be familiar with some of the basic problems encountered in an old small block Chevy. The first is the imfamous nylon toothed cam gear. The nylon gets brittle and breaks apart over time resulting in a very loose timing chain. Always replace one of these with a steel gear. Notice that most of the nylon is gone and the chain has been eating into the aluminum gear underneath.

Tom Bryant
04-08-03, 12:50 PM
The next two are pictures of cam lobes that are gone. This is due to soft cams that were a recuring problem in the '70s. These parts are from the "good" '72 Monte Carlo engine that came with my project. Compare the worn off lobes withthe sharp point of the good lobes.

Tom Bryant
04-08-03, 12:53 PM
Not many good lobes in that picture. Let's try this one.

Ken
04-08-03, 09:04 PM
Nice cam Tom! :duh

_ken :w

Tom Bryant
04-16-03, 09:29 PM
Cliff and I took the block over to the machine shop on Monday. Somehow I forgot to throw the box of rods in the car so I dropped them off today. I was suprised to find out that he did the block yesterday! :) What a thing of beauty. Perfectly clean with shiney new freeze plugs and oil galley plugs. He found a plugged oil galley above the next to rear main. He said it was a really tough thing to clean out. Makes me wonder if it was plugged from new and that is why that one cylinder scored in so few of miles.

Anyway it's all better now. I looked at my new pistons while I was there. Nice looking pieces. The valve reliefs had pretty sharp machined edges on them so I'll be softening them and polishing the tops. Anything that will help reduce the chance of detonation is time well spent.

Tom

DkBG
04-16-03, 10:00 PM
Yes and he bought lunch Too . It wasn't very good , but , He Did Buy !;) Cliff

Tom Bryant
04-16-03, 10:19 PM
At least we know where NOT to go the next time.

Tom Bryant
04-22-03, 01:59 AM
Well, Cliff and I made the rounds today. Went to H&W in Edgerton and got a new alternator for my son's Blazer and put that on. I hope this one lasts more than 2 weeks. Thankfully he bought a lifetime one in the beginning. This was number 3. Then we went to H&W in Hicksville to the machine shop and picked up the block and pistons. Threw them in the Vibe. It makes a pretty good truck. Then went to Butler IN to the Chevy dealer where my wife works and picked up the calipers for the '81, We struck out on the p/s pulley for his big Buick wagon but that will be in tomorrow. Also had lunch at a much better resturant than last time.

Here's one of the Silv-o-Lite pistons. You can see how sharp the edges of the valve reliefs are. Those will get softened some.


http://corvetteactioncenter.com/forums/gallery/data/500/83Mvc-025s-med.jpg .Sorry
these pictures were deleted with the old members gallery. If anyone needs to see these just ask and I'll dig them up.

Heres the block. He found a plugged oil galley in the #4 bearing web so it was a good thing I decided to have him do the super cleaning, galley plugs, freeze plugs and cam bearings. The cylinder wall finish is superior.

http://corvetteactioncenter.com/forums/gallery/data/500/83Mvc-024s-med.jpg

Remember that $500. budget thing I was talking about? Well, I can kiss that one goodbye. Not over it yet but I'm within $35. If not for the one scored cylinder that plan would have worked. For anyone following along with the thoughts of doing a budget rebuild these are the things that you can all too often run into. I'll go over the machine shop bill and post it so you can see what was involved in just a basic clean-up bore and block cleaning

Tom Bryant
05-11-03, 10:33 PM
I'm sorry that this rebuild is starting to drag on but I've been trying to get the garage and house ready for my son's graduation party. Everything else, including engine funds, is on the back burner for at least the next 2 weeks. I'll try to get that machine shop bill posted tomorrow while I am taking a break from painting.

Tom

echoecho11
05-12-03, 01:57 AM
Tom "gerate thried" hope you keep it going.

I've been down this same road a dozen or so times. It amazes me that you can get a good short block done for $500 and your close to that. and is not a good machine shop a god send ? think of what he saved you when he found that blocked oil passage. not haveing to take it back out of your C10 makes that $130 bore job posably the best mony you have spent. you did'nt mention PN's on the cylender heads but I"m guessing 883's if they are seventys LT1 stuff.? and are they big valve? anyway thanks for the good thried . congraudulation on getting a kid through graduation ( it's a job for shure) and speaking for myself ( I'm shure other gear heads too.) dont mid wateting. having sad that it's killing me to see what you do to the heads for under 500? :pat Echo 1

Ken
05-12-03, 08:06 PM
Originally posted by echoecho11
"gerate thried"

:confused

echoecho11
05-12-03, 10:59 PM
lettes see..... a ....... how about " TOM" Great post. honestly
I've driven every english teacher I had nuts trying to teach me to spell. I was trying to spell " thread". when I went through 2nd grade we were to use phonic's, then in the 3rd they said now we are going to spell words the way they sound to through out phonic's. along comes the 5th grade and they said that it did'nt work lets go back to phonic's .:hb I will jest have to try harder ..... K.

Tom Bryant
05-13-03, 12:56 AM
I got the point. :L I thought that you got your fingers tangled up while typing. I do that a lot. Once in a while you can even catch Ken making a typo but not too often. :L

I didn't get to the posting of the machine shop bill today. I was in the garage all day painting and cleaning. sprayed the ceiling even. I'll post that fun tale in the Corvette Stables Forum.

As for the heads, they are the '72 Monte Carlo 2 bbl heads that were on the dead engine. I measured them at 78cc actual. A little larger than what they are supposed to be. If I use them I won't have to install hard seats. If I use the '70 350/300 64cc heads I have I'll have to put in hard seats to be on the safe side. Either head has 1.94 intakes. I should use the old bearings and set the crank in and slip one piston/rod asm in to check deck height. Then I'd know which way to go. If I can get a break from the garage cleaning I'll do that.

The machine shop has a Sunnen machine to do the heads that uses a cutter that will cut all 3 valve angles at once. Makes for a perfect seat. He can also do the bowl blending on that machine. A little port matching and some performance springs and I'll be set. Don't know if the valves will be usable yet or not. He can give me a real good price on stainless if I need them. I'll probably go with screw in studs and guide plates for security. I think I have a set in the cabinet.

Who knows. Maybe a set of more interesting heads will come along before I get that far.

Tom

echoecho11
05-13-03, 03:58 AM
Tom whould you happen to know when did chevy go to hardend exaust valve seats? some say that 75 was the year for no lead and another sorce says they started in 73 but only on certan ones? the reason I ask is because I have a set of 3973487's with production date L-2-O . near as I can tell this is the correct number for 71 to 76 LT1's but the date indicates that the heads were made in dec 2 of 70 ? so I'm not shure that I need hardend seats installed or not ? from what I can gather unless some one has installed them already your 72 monty heads they might need them ? I'm useing these 487 heads on a engine that has the sterlling two valve relefe flat top pistions so like you I wanted the larger open chamber 76cc heads but my problem is compounded because I'm runing the summit 383 stroker crank. hope the extra 1/4 inch stroke dose not run the compresion up to high. I also need to check my pistion to deck hight, have you ever herd of a person useing a thick head gasket to lower compression? keep pluging on that clean up Tom.... thanks

Echo 1 :v :Steer

69MyWay
05-13-03, 04:22 AM
They never look better than fresh out of the machine shop.

I ended up painting my 69 block "cast iron", then applied three coats of clear so that it has that fresh machined look all the time.

What color are you going to paint this one?

Ken
05-13-03, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by Tom Bryant
I got the point. :L I thought that you got your fingers tangled up while typing.

I thought it was Gallic or something. Thought maybe you guys were birds of a similar feather and had your own language. :L

Tom Bryant
05-13-03, 04:43 PM
Ken,

We have a secret hand shake too.

Chris,

Actually you have been an influence on me. I will probably go the cast iron grey and clear also. If not I have some bright silver Dodge truck Chroma and I could make it look like John's Caddy.

Echo 1,

When GM and the rest lowered the compression ratios for the '71 model year the engines were unleaded compatible. That was part of the deal. It wasn't necessary to use it though and many areas didn't have it available for a couple years. Heads for '71 model even if actually built in late '70 should have hard seats. Beginning in '75 they were required to run unleaded due to the cat converters.

Heads gaskets are available in varied compressed thicknesses and you can gain or reduce conmpression ratio by going to a thicker or thinner gasket. The compressed thickness of the head gasket is one of the figures that goes into calculating true compression ratio. Most catalogs will give the compressed thickness of the gasket.

The supplier of your stroker kit can tell you what the cr will be with the heads you are using depending on deck height and head gasket used.

Tom

echoecho11
05-21-03, 02:58 AM
Thanks for the info on the heads TOM, it will come in handy.

Think you might like Hugger Orange on them SBC ?

This pic is of a 66 vette engine I did last summer .:v

echoecho11
05-21-03, 03:32 AM
"OH HECK" That pic didn't do it justaus.....try this....:D

Tom Bryant
05-21-03, 02:57 PM
Nice looking engine.

Tom Bryant
06-01-03, 08:03 AM
Did you paint the inside of your block. If so, with what product? Have you ever looked under the intake to see how well it is holding up?

Tom

JohnZ
06-01-03, 01:19 PM
Tom - After de-burring the drain-back holes, I paint the lifter valley with "Glyptal" (made specifically for this purpose); have used it for many years. Eastwood carries it.
:beer

Tom Bryant
06-01-03, 04:36 PM
Thanks John,

I think I will do that next before I go any further since the block is clean. I might as well order some stones and rolls from Eastwood too.

Tom Bryant
06-10-03, 02:33 AM
Well here's what I've been up to tonight.

First I used a chamfering bit and took off the slight burr and beveled the edge of the oil returns between the lifters. The one on the left is before and you can see the bevel on the one on the right. I just chucked it up in the drill and it only took a few minutes for all 8 of them.

Sorry
these pictures were deleted with the old members gallery. If anyone needs to see these just ask and I'll dig them up.

Here is the right rear oil return. You can see the amount of casting flash around the hole. This inhibits oil flow back into the pan from the upper engine.

This is the same hole after I ground out the flash and opened up the passage some. I also smoothed up the narrow entrance to the hole and radiused over the top of the passage for a smoother flow.

Here's the left side return after deburring. I also smoothed up it's entrance.

These are the tools I used. A cone shaped stone and a chamfering bit. If you use a high speed die grinder for your stones make sure the ones you get are rated for high speed and wear safety glasses or a face shield. You don't want a stone exploding at 22,000 rpms. A good high speed stone like this one will last a long time. This one doesn't even show any wear yet. Sorry for the blury picture. I thought I was just tired.

I also used some emery and softened the edge of the valve reliefs where they meet the machined surface of the piston. There was a very sharp edge there which could cause a hot spot resulting in detonation. It didn't take much to take off the burr and if you compare this picture with the one I posted earlier you can see the smoother edge.

While I'm at it I'm going to look over the rest of the block for burrs and any stress risers and smooth those out too.

Tom

Tom Bryant
06-20-03, 01:28 PM
My son Blaine took my old block and had his friend that is going to school at Lima Oh (Hot Rod University) bore it and get some pistons. Now he has an engine project too. He gets free labor and a deep parts discount though.

2 engines:

Tom Bryant
06-20-03, 01:32 PM
He got Silv-O-Lite pistons too but his are the Kieth Black Signature Series 2 eyebrow.

I'll use these or maybe forged when I do an engine for the '59.

Tom Bryant
06-20-03, 01:45 PM
Talk about poor oil drainbacks. Look how blocked with casting flash this one is. Compare with the pic I posted above of my block and after I cleaned mine up. This makes you wonder about what yours looks like in the engine in your Corvette.

Tom Bryant
07-24-03, 09:25 AM
Since most of my summer events and distractions are out of the way it's time to get going on the engine again. I got the paint in so I now need to check over and clean the block again so I can paint it. The plan is for it to be painted on monday. The cast grey I got looks to be a low gloss paint that will actually look like bare iron. Can't waite to see it. The paint has ceramic in it ans is supposed to be super engine paint. We'll see. When i get this thing running I'll report on anything that does't live up to expectations. Also an anything that impresses me beyond belief.

Here's the paint:

Tom Bryant
07-24-03, 09:28 AM
I was playing around with the carb and intake. With that dropped base on the air cleaner the Holley almost dissappears.

Tom Bryant
07-24-03, 09:33 AM
Here's the base by itself. I don't need a dropped air cleaner on Project C10R but it came with the basketcase. This shows what can be gained by using one of these air cleaners when swapping intakes on your Corvette.

bossvette
07-24-03, 06:08 PM
tom
I probably have an old HEI laying around if you want it, just one wire from the ign switch and you are good to go.
Craig sr

Tom Bryant
07-29-03, 01:12 AM
Sound like a good idea Craig. My old points distributor is so sloppy that I'm not sure bushings and shims will fix it. I figured I'd have to hit the swap meets. Let me know what you need for it.

Tom

Tom Bryant
07-29-03, 02:51 PM
Fired up the old die grinder this AM and pretty much polished the lifter valley area. Don't ask me why. I guess I was having too much fun and didn't know enough to stop.:L Then I washed it down 4 times with Prep Sol and painted the valley and the timing chain area with the Glyptal. Had the doors open. Man is that stuff potent. Everyone was right, one quart will paint about 100 engines. :L Well 20 maybe. Had to give it 2 coats on the polished areas but it covered well with one on the raw cast areas.

I painted the outside of the block last night with the cast iron grey and it looks marvelous! Has enough gloss that I won't need to clear it. I'd post some pics but I'm late for work now. I'll be in upper Michigan for a couple days and will take a few pics when I get home.

I'm almost afraid to get into the shower. I'm covered with so much iron that I'll probably rust up just standing there.

Tom

bossvette
07-29-03, 06:03 PM
Tom
how about you buy lunch next time, I don't expect to go back to a carb on anything.
Craig sr

DkBG
07-29-03, 06:22 PM
Damn fine idea , Craig ! I'm sure you meant all four of us , right .LOL . Only , lets eat in Indiana next time . The food seems to be alot better over here ! Cliff

Tom Bryant
07-31-03, 03:04 AM
Sounds like a good idea Craig. We'll just follow Cliff's lead next time and if we get bad food we'll know who to blame. :L

I'm going to bake the Glyptal tomorrow. It says 2 hours at 125 degrees. How am I going to get the block into the oven? Actually I brought home an infared lamp. What I could use now is one of those lazer jobbys to measure the surface temp.

With the email notification on the blink right now it's hard to keep up with the threads I'm suscribed to. If it looks like I'm missing a post someplace that I need to reply to please send me a PM.


Tom

Tom Bryant
08-04-03, 03:59 PM
The block is painted and the Glyptal is baked. Came out pretty nice even if I do say so myself.

Ken
08-04-03, 07:26 PM
Very nice Tom! :upthumbs

_ken :w

JohnZ
08-04-03, 07:34 PM
Cool! Now fill it up! :beer

Tom Bryant
08-04-03, 08:48 PM
I'm working on it. :D I just finished deburring the oil holes in the crank and polishing it. Tedious work. Makes you nervous running a die grinder around those crank journals. One slip and you have a real mess. Now I need to finish cleaning it and the block up. Then measure everything again and get those bearings ordered. I was going to order them earlier but decided to waite until I was done with the crankshaft.

Here's what the results looked like.

Tom Bryant
08-26-03, 02:37 AM
For everyone wondering where all of the pictures went, the attachments had to be deleted during a backup that Rob did last week during the blackout. :cry I'll get out the floppys and post them to the correct posts again. Stay tuned.

Also more progress will be coming soon. Seems like all I have been doing lately is working and mowing. :crazy

Tom

JohnZ
08-26-03, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by Tom Bryant
Also more progress will be coming soon. Seems like all I have been doing lately is working and mowing. :crazy

Tom

I solved both of those problems:

1. Retired
2. Hired a lawn service

Still don't have enough time - don't know how I ever got anything done when I was working :D

Tom Bryant
10-08-03, 12:56 AM
Time to get going on this again. Thanks to Craig Sr. for the HEI distributor he donated to the cause. First thing I have to do is get all the pictures back up we lost during the blackout. I think I'll just add them as attachments so the thead will load faster.

Tom

Tom Bryant
10-18-03, 04:41 PM
:z OK Where is that big brown truck. Waiting on Summit order and GM says my cam has been shipped from Daytona.

Tom

Ken
10-18-03, 06:29 PM
Yeah, right. Like you'd ever get impatient. :L

_ken :w

Tom Bryant
10-19-03, 05:12 PM
Who? Me? The cam's on the bench. :D

Tom Bryant
10-19-03, 05:19 PM
GM Performance Parts 12353918 Camshaft Kit
All "Marine" and off-road small-block Chevrolet V8. Compression ratio 8.75 - 10.5 to 1, 2600 - 3000 cruise rpm, basic rpm range 2000 - 4500 rpm, 6500 rpm attainable with proper valve springs and lifters.

Technical Notes: These are hydraulic flat tappet camshaft kits. The duration at .050 lift (intake/exhaust) is 214/224 degrees, and the valve lift is .442"/.465". Lobe centerline is 112. This camshaft kit is designed and manufactured by Crane Cam Co.®. It contains one camshaft and 16 tappets.

Ken
10-19-03, 05:26 PM
:bu

bossvette
10-20-03, 10:42 AM
sounds like a cam I have laying around somewhere:L

Tom Bryant
10-21-03, 09:13 AM
It should match the rpm range of Project C10-R just right with the 3.73 rear. Here's a pic of all the stuff I had plus what the Big Brown Truck brought yesterday. The driver wouldn't get out of the truck. I told my 3 chows "Don't eat him. I need that stuff." :L At least I thought it was funny.

I bought one of those trick tapered aluminum ring compressors in 4.030 size. Since I have at least 2 more 355s to do after this one I thought it was a good tool to have. I'm also going to order one of those one piece pan gaskets. They look like the hot setup. Now all I need is some time to final clean the block and put the short block together. Then it is on to the heads.

Tom

Thumper
10-21-03, 09:16 AM
Wow, look at the shine on that bench.....that's the nicest "shop" bench I think I've ever seen.

Tom Bryant
10-21-03, 09:18 AM
Here's one of the air cleaner. I got bored one day and painted it. The chrome was pitted on the top from sitting in a damp shop at the previouse owner's so I sanded it, taped off the Chevrolet and the edge and shot it with the cast grey. Whatch think?

Tom Bryant
10-21-03, 09:49 AM
Originally posted by Thumper
Wow, look at the shine on that bench.....that's the nicest "shop" bench I think I've ever seen.

Thanks Jeff. Some would say that's because I don't use it enough. ;LOL

Tom Bryant
11-05-03, 03:07 PM
As some of you have noticed preperation for the CAC national Cruise Fest (see announcement at the top of each forum) has become all consuming. Good thing is that I still have 3 1/2 weeks of vacation to use by the end of the year. Looks like I'll have a three day weekend every week for the rest of the year on top of our trip out west.

Anyhow, I don't have time to look up a couple things I need to assemble the short block so I'll ask. Then I'll be ready when I start getting these extra days off.

1) I have read about a one piece pan gasket for the small block. Who makes it and who sells it?

2) I recall reading about 2 lip rear main seals.Where can I get these and are they really great or about the same as GM?

3) Is there a 2 lip seal for the front cover?

Thanks,
Tom

Thumper
11-05-03, 03:51 PM
Felpro made the one piece pan gasket that I'm using. It's ultra slick and hasn't leaked a drop of oil since I installed it.

I bought mine from a local speed shop. Summit and Jegs both sell them.

Can't help you on the other items.

Tom Bryant
11-05-03, 11:56 PM
Thanks Jeff. I'll check the Summit catalog again.

Tom

Ken
11-06-03, 12:22 AM
I'll let you know where I screwed up when I installed mine Tom, just as soon as I get the pan back off again. :hb

_ken

69MyWay
11-06-03, 05:26 AM
Originally posted by Tom Bryant
Here's one of the air cleaner. I got bored one day and painted it. The chrome was pitted on the top from sitting in a damp shop at the previouse owner's so I sanded it, taped off the Chevrolet and the edge and shot it with the cast grey. Whatch think?

You need to give it a light scuff and shoot clear over it to get that super wet, slick, easy to clean, durable look.

Tom Bryant
11-06-03, 09:36 AM
That was the origional intention Chris. I like the way the block looks in Killer. There is just something that looks very buisnesslike about that low gloss though. I really like it. I have a few more parts to do so I'll clear one of them for comparison.


Ken,

You just stumbled onto my ultimate plan. As long as I never finish anything I'll never have any oil leaks. :L

Tom

Tom Bryant
12-02-03, 02:11 AM
Well, I spent a few hours cleaning, cleaning and then cleaning some more until I was satisfied that it was absolutely steril. Then I coated the cam bearing journals with assembly lube and slipped it in. I like to install the cam with the crank out so I can guide it through the bearings with a hand on both ends, sort of.

Here's a picture.

Ken
12-02-03, 02:17 AM
I shoulda done my block in the aluminum paint Tom ("Builder's Cast Aluminum"?), but then it'd have oil leak stains all over it by now anyway, just like my header collectors. :L

_ken :w

Tom Bryant
12-02-03, 02:31 AM
Then I installed the main bearing shells into the block and caps. I torqued them to specs and got out the micrometers. Measured the ID of the bearings and the OD of the corrosponding crank journal. Subtract the OD from the ID and you have your clearance. I checked each one 3 or 4 times as I don't do this very often and I wanted to be sure I was getting an accurate reading. The machine shop gave me some Plasti-gage but I trust real measurements more than squished plastic.

Here's a picture with the crank in and the Cloyes timing set on. I bumped on the crank gear while the crank was sitting on the bench. When it is fully seated it has a different ring to it. Sounds like part of the crank. A deep socket works great for this.

Tom Bryant
12-02-03, 02:42 AM
Ken,

I was thinking about smoothing up the ouside of my heads and painting them with that alumna blast or something that looks like real aluminum. Think they would fool anyone? :L

bossvette
12-02-03, 07:47 AM
Tom
you have it backwards, you are supposed to paint the aluminum heads to look like cast iron:L

Tom Bryant
12-08-03, 02:11 AM
The first thing I did today was determine top dead center so I could check the timing mark on the balancer and check deck height. I needed a piston stop so I looked in the tool chest and found the perfect thing. My pulley puller. It bolted across the deck and the bolt hit on the flat between the valve reliefs perfectly. I rotated the crank with one picton installed in #1 cylinder until it hit the stop and marked the balancer. I used a combination square to get the line at a right angle to the balancer face. Then I rotated the crank the other way til it hit the stop again and marked the balancer. I went back and forth 2 more times to check that the marks were lining up exactly for accuracy. Exactly 1/2 way between the 2 marks is exactly TDC (top dead center).

Here's the piston stop installed on the block.

Tom Bryant
12-08-03, 02:17 AM
As it turned out my balancer timing mark was about 1/32" toward the advance side. That is about 1 degree or about the thickness of the timing mark. I think I can live with that. This could also just be production tolerences on the timing indicator tab. This shows that the inertia ring is still where it should be on the hub and has not slipped. Here's a picture of the timing mark and my reference marks.

Tom Bryant
12-08-03, 02:24 AM
Lining up the timing marks again at TDC I measured the deck height. Since the block wasn't decked I wasn't too suprised to find a reading of .045. Seems like a lot but a friend just had one done at Lingenfelters and he ended up with .040. This probably had as much to do with compression height of the new pistons as anything. In this picture you can see how far down in the hole the piston is at TDC.

Tom Bryant
12-08-03, 02:32 AM
I pulled that rod and piston back out and opened the ring package. Pushed the top and second rings down in the bore about midway in the ring travel with the inverted piston and got a .016 end gap on the top and 0.17 on the second. Hastings calls for .016 minimum and this about mid range according to the GM shop manual. Installed the rings on the piston using an installer so as not to break any of them and inserted it in the Summit compressor. This thing is slick. I've never used this type before but it was money well spent. I couldn't even tell when the rings entered the cylinder. It was that smooth.

Here's the assembly going in.

Tom Bryant
12-08-03, 02:37 AM
#1 in the hole and seven to go. I double checked the rod bearing clearance with the mics too before installing the rod and piston. Snugged up the cap for now. I'll torque them all at once when they are all in. Here's the assembly installed.


It almost looks too nice to think about srarting a fire in there doesn't it?

69MyWay
12-08-03, 06:01 AM
So what is your total build cost at this point including extra materials like the slick ring compressor, cans of paint...etc?

JohnZ
12-08-03, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by Tom Bryant
I pulled that rod and piston back out and opened the ring package. Pushed the top and second rings down in the bore about midway in the ring travel with the inverted piston and got a .016 end gap on the top and 0.17 on the second. Hastings calls for .016 minimum and this about mid range according to the GM shop manual.

Tom - Don't remember what pistons you're using, but if they're hypereutectics (KB's, etc.), follow the piston manufacturer's recommendations (not the ring manufacturer's) for gap on the top two rings, as hypers require more gap than cast pistons. If they're cast, you're in business at .016"-.017".
:beer

Tom Bryant
12-10-03, 04:49 PM
I called Jerry at Tech Assist at United Engine and Machine Co. They manufacture the Silv-O-Lite and Kieth Black pistons. He said that due to the higher reflective rate of the hyper alloy that the top ring gets hotter and can grow enough to close the gap. He also said that he know of many guys that have just thrown away the tech sheet from the piston set when they open it and installed the Silv-O-Lites at .017 and never had a problem. If I had the engine together and in the car he would leave them alone. They are a hyper version of the OEM ones and not that critrical. Since I can still get to mine easy the factory recommendation is .026 on the top ring only. .016-.018 for the second is fine.

The K-Bs have the top ring closer to the top of the piston and are much more critical. The factory specs for them are .028-.032 for the top ring only.

Looks like I get to buy a ring filer. No problem since the other engine we are doing has K-Bs and I'll also be custom fitting rings when I do an engine for the '59.

bossvette
12-10-03, 05:58 PM
Tom
Ive got one you can borrow,unless you want to buy one. perhaps you will let me borrow that slick ring compresser someday?
Craig sr

DkBG
12-10-03, 06:48 PM
I guess it was a good idea not to torque them yet after all . Good call Tom . Cliff

Tom Bryant
12-11-03, 05:23 AM
Sounds like a good deal Craig. We'll need to get together. I would rather spend that money on somthing I need. I didn't think there was much chance of knowing someone with a ring filer.:L

Chris,

I'm going to do a complete cost sheet on the short block as soon as I get the last couple of small items. I'm curious too.

Tom

Cliff,
:D

Tom Bryant
12-14-03, 11:10 PM
I borrowed Craigs ring filer today. It's the hand crank one you see in all of the catalogs. Worked great. You just lay the ring on the surface, slide it up to the stops and squeeze it together against the grinding disk. Turn the crank a few times and you get nice smooth and parallel cuts. Put the ring in and square it up. Measure the gap. Pull it back out and file again until it is perfect. Only takes a few turns to take a lot off. You need to remember that.

I took them out one at a time then marked that cylinder with a bolt in the deck so I wouldn't get lost if I got distracted. Here's a picture of me squaring a ring in the cylinder with a special Kieth Black ring positioner. They come in sets of 8 but I used the same one on all cylinders. I couldn't use my pistons unless I took the other rings off.

Tom Bryant
12-14-03, 11:13 PM
Checking the gap with a .026 feeler guage.

Tom Bryant
12-17-03, 01:14 AM
Sunday night late I ordered the one piece Fel-Pro pan gasket from Summit. I was going to order the front timing cover set with the sleeve for the balancer snout too but they were showing it on back order for the year of balancer I have. No problem. I'll just look it up on NAPA Online and call them in the morning. Morning became afternoon after a doctor's appt and a National Cruise-Fest committee meeting. I called H&W and they had to get the one with the sleeve out of the warehouse. "Should be here in the morning." That is usually the case too. So 1st thing this morning I get an email confirmation that the pan gasket was shipped by Summit. 3 hours later the big brown truck was at the door. This was just plain old UPS ground. I'm sure it actually went out on Monday though.

I stopped at H&W and found out that the front set wasn't at the warehouse but should be here in a couple days. I guess that gives me time to clean up the pan and balancer and paint them. I hope to get the short block sealed up before I go to Arizona on Saturday.

andrewcanada
12-25-03, 10:52 AM
Your timeline is similar to mine... forever. I've not got Corvette, but three Chevy's in yard, all with variations of worn-out itis. Auto zone sells their 2 bolt 350 (1979) for $800. Parts America wants $1150.from reconengines.com. Big price difference. Local guy wants $1050 with sillycone pistons, new high torque/fuel mileage cam. I havn't gone to recon's web site yet, but my local rebuilder says they use whatever parts look good from the cores. Is recon fussier due to their higher price? He's worked for a reputable shop for 22 years and has since bought the business and building. My experience from these 'national' rebuilders (as far as starters and alternators) has been pretty poor. They have a nice paint job, but the quality is terrible. I rebuild my own and am much fussier with the bushings on the armature. I recently had to replace the starter on my '83 K10. It shows 77k, but must be 177k. Assuming it was the one originally installed on this truck, it had never been apart! I've been saving all of the 'unrebuildable' parts as an eventual core from hell! Any feed back on these production line engines? :nono Another question. Why is the four bolt block $100 more. They still get back the core, or they could charge more to be assured of its return. My '79 is a 3/4 ton 2wd w/ 4bolt. One more Q. What are preferences for low torque cam, as my 4x4 must have 3:08's w/700R4, as I can't pull 4th/lockup with 305 except on the flat, that's why it'll get a 350. Andrew;shrug

Tom Bryant
01-15-04, 02:39 PM
Well vacation and the holidays are over. Time to get going on this again. I got the front gasket set with the balancer repair sleeve and also the pan gasket before I went to Arizona but didn't have time to put it together. Right now I'm working on cleaning up the pan and balancer for paint. I mounted the oil pump and set the pickup position. I'll have to check again but I think I set it around 1/4 to 3/8" off the bottom. I'll post some pictures to show how I determined that. I need to get it tack welded to the pump body yet to make sure it doesn't move or, even worse, fall out. It's a tight fit and probably would never come loose but this is a pecaution that most deem necessary. I'll also show installing the balancer repair sleeve after I get the balancer painted.

Tom

Tom Bryant
02-03-04, 01:02 PM
I have the short block finisned for the most part. I got tired of trying to sand/grind/wire brush the rust out of the pits in that 1972 pan so I took it to the sand blaster yesterday. Summit has new stock replacement pans for around $25. bare or 2 bucks more powder coated in orange. It was temping but getting the blast job will save me 20 bucks and this is supposed to be a low budget build. Besides I have the paint already.

I was going to take a picture of the balancer repair sleeve before I put it on but forgot. It is a thin sleeve with a lip on the end and is actually smaller in diameter than the balancer snout. I put it in very hot water to expand it some and then bumped it on squarly with a block of wood and a hammer. I set the balancer outdoors over night also to chill and contract. I could actually see the sleeve expanding as the snout passed through it. No way that will ever come off by itself. Here is the finished product.

Tom Bryant
02-03-04, 01:10 PM
Here is the balancer bolt and washer from Chevrolet. The bolt head is drilled for safety wire if you are going to use it for severe duty such as endurance rading.

Tom Bryant
02-03-04, 01:26 PM
Installing the balancer is easily done without the expense of buying or renting a balancer installer. All you need is a longer bolt with the right threads. Put a couple of washers and a larger nut or 2 on to take up the space and screw it into the crank pressing the balancer on. Usually one time to the end of the threads will get you close enough to use the regular balancer bolt and washer to finish the job. Once seated home remove the bolt. Install your crank pulley and reinstall. Block the crank from turning with a block of wood and torque to 60 lbs.

Tom Bryant
02-03-04, 01:38 PM
Next is figuring out the correct possition for the oil pump pickup in the new pump. It seems that about 3/8" off the bottom of the pan is preferred by most builders. Here's how I measured it.

First I measured how far forward from the rear pan wall the lowest point of the pickup would be. Then I laid a straight edge, a level in this case, across the pan at that location and used a combo square to measure the distance from the pan rail to the bottom of the pan.

Tom Bryant
02-03-04, 01:55 PM
Next I inverted the combo square to set flush against the pan rail on the block. I inserted the pickup into the new pump that is mounted and snugged down on the rear main cap but left it out far enough that I could still move it. I measured down 3/8" from the combo square to the pickup at it's lowest point (highest here with the engine upside down) and moved the pickup position to the required measurement. I then bumped it firmly home in the pump and rechecked it.

I then marked the pump and pickup with a marker so I could be sure of it's position later. I will now remove the pump and have the pickup spot welded to the pump for secrity's sake. This is a common safety measure and even though small blocks come from the factory with just the pickup pressed in and very rarely have a problem I think it's a good thing to do since It's open and available.

Next I will do the forever promised cost summery of the short block build. I am as curious as most of you as to what I have in this so far. Then I will start on the heads.

Jack
02-03-04, 02:52 PM
Summit has new stock replacement pans for around $25. bare or 2 bucks more powder coated in orange. It was temping but getting the blast job will save me 20 bucks and this is supposed to be a low budget build. Besides I have the paint already. Tom: The $25 summit pan is likely a taiwan job. Your OE chevy pan is a better pan & will probably fit much better than the $25 new one.
JACK:gap

Tom Bryant
02-03-04, 04:43 PM
No doubt you're right Jack. I had to "clearance" that $7. chrome timing cover to clear the water pump legs.

Tom Bryant
02-04-04, 04:26 AM
Well here is the cost summary. The only way I could get it to come out like I wanted was to attach it as a document. Just click on the attachment to open it. I tried to copy/paste but it got all scrambled up for some reason. A computer wiz I'm not.


Actually I don't think I'm doing too bad. The only thing not figured is the oil pan sand blasting but most people won't have as rusty of an old pan as I do.

Tom

Tom Bryant
02-14-04, 11:25 PM
Here is that Fel-Pro one piece pan gasket. It comes with all new bolts and star washers. Those blue things you screw into the 4 corners of the block when doing the job from under the car. Then you slip the pan up over them and they hold the pan in place while you get some bolts started. The pouch of RTV sealer is from the front cover set.

Tom Bryant
02-14-04, 11:46 PM
Here's the gasket laying on the engine so you can see how nce it all fits without worrying about the ends and sides sealing. It goes on completely dry with only a dab of rtv on the corners where the rear main cap and front cover meets the block.

The bad news is that the pan blasting sort of come out like I feared it would. The pitting was deep and ugly but even worse it is impossible to get all of the sand out of the baffle area. I was afraid of that but thought that washing, pressure washing and air blasting would get it all. No such luck.It just keeps coming from somewhere. New pan time. Not worth the risk.

Ken
02-15-04, 04:31 PM
Look how nicely that thing fits. That I could screw it up is an indication of how incompetent I am.

We didn't have a one-piece gasket available when I pulled my pan, so I used a regular four-piece set and now I think I small leak with that one. :hb

_ken

JohnZ
02-16-04, 05:19 PM
Tom, the new pan you get can affect whether your gasket seals at the front or not. An original (pre-'75) pan has a 2-1/4" front seal radius and takes the "thin" front seal (and the Fel-Pro #34509 gasket), and '75 or later production or service pans (including the still-available GM #359937, the only Corvette pan still available from GM) have a 2-3/8" front seal radius for the "thick" front seal and take the Fel-Pro #34510 gasket.

:beer

bossvette
02-16-04, 06:06 PM
Tom, the new pan you get can affect whether your gasket seals at the front or not. An original (pre-'75) pan has a 2-1/4" front seal radius and takes the "thin" front seal (and the Fel-Pro #34509 gasket), and '75 or later production or service pans (including the still-available GM #359937, the only Corvette pan still available from GM) have a 2-3/8" front seal radius for the "thick" front seal and take the Fel-Pro #34510 gasket.

:beerThanks John
I learned something today, perhaps that is why my Vette "marks its territory"
I have a Moroso pan, Edelbrock aluminum timing cover and was thinking of trying the one piece gasket; Do you think it will help?
thanks
Craig sr

Tom Bryant
02-16-04, 06:26 PM
John,
Yes, I bought the 34509 to use with the '72 pan. Even the cheap $25. Summit powder coated pan uses the thick front seal.

If I understand this right the 359937 is the current offering of the '57-'62 trap door (5 qt pan capacity) only modified from it's origional configuration to use the thick '75 and newer front pan seal? I guess I hadn't thought about how it was different from the old ones since I have 2. I have an extra origional off of my extra '61/270 sitting in a crate but hate to use it on the truck.

Since you are extremely Z28 literate here is something else I've been thinking about. I used to sell a lot of 302 Z28 pans back in my Chevy parts days. They had nice side baffles that kept the oil from climbing the side of the pan on hard corners and were very popular in use and price with the Ft. Wayne area bulders. The origional part number I think was 3974251 and was also used on Sp. H/Per. 350s through '74.

Is the currant GM Performance Parts listing of part number 360450 Z28 pan the same pan or an updated version using the thick front seal? Or is it something else altogether? I can't find any GM Performance Parts dealer that lists it as anything more than Z28 pan. It would help if they gave a more thorough description.

I may have to return the 509 and get a 510 pan gasket. An extra qt. capacity would be nice though.

Thanks,
Tom

Jack
02-17-04, 11:59 AM
Tom:

The pitting was deep and ugly but even worse it is impossible to get all of the sand out of the baffle area. I was afraid of that but thought that washing, pressure washing and air blasting would get it all. No such luck.It just keeps coming from somewhere. New pan time. Not worth the risk.
UHHHH ... for some reason I'd figured it was rusty outside ... only outside. Yep, it'd be tough to get the grit outa the baffling.

About 2 years back, I got a really nice kicked out sump 7 qt pan from these guys. It is a Taiwan copy of a Moroso P/N 20190 … dimensionally same as 20190 … sump about 8 ¼” deep and has trap doors. Although Taiwan, it actually fit real well (with later thick seal) and came with the correct pickup … all for $54 plus $15 shipping. Summit has similar Taiwan pan for about $75 but no pickup. Also, same folks had OE type pans (also Taiwan) for about $20-$25.
Here’s their current ebay listing for same pan I got
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2461104278
Here’s their current ebay listing for a Taiwan OE-type pan
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2461104254
Their deal worked for me, you might give it a whirl. 2 years back the Contact info was:

Heather or Shaun at
Auto Sound And Performance
818 Lee Road 292
Smiths AL 36877
Abad71camaro@AOL.COM

JACK:gap

Tom Bryant
02-17-04, 12:17 PM
It was just rusty on the outside but that sand went everywhere. I'll check out that Ebay listing. It would be a good idea to have extra capacity with the high volumn pump.


Tom

JohnZ
02-17-04, 05:09 PM
John,
Yes, I bought the 34509 to use with the '72 pan. Even the cheap $25. Summit powder coated pan uses the thick front seal.

If I understand this right the 359937 is the current offering of the '57-'62 trap door (5 qt pan capacity) only modified from it's origional configuration to use the thick '75 and newer front pan seal? I guess I hadn't thought about how it was different from the old ones since I have 2. I have an extra origional off of my extra '61/270 sitting in a crate but hate to use it on the truck.

Since you are extremely Z28 literate here is something else I've been thinking about. I used to sell a lot of 302 Z28 pans back in my Chevy parts days. They had nice side baffles that kept the oil from climbing the side of the pan on hard corners and were very popular in use and price with the Ft. Wayne area bulders. The origional part number I think was 3974251 and was also used on Sp. H/Per. 350s through '74.

Is the currant GM Performance Parts listing of part number 360450 Z28 pan the same pan or an updated version using the thick front seal? Or is it something else altogether? I can't find any GM Performance Parts dealer that lists it as anything more than Z28 pan. It would help if they gave a more thorough description.

I may have to return the 509 and get a 510 pan gasket. An extra qt. capacity would be nice though.

Thanks,
Tom
Yup, the #359937 pan is identical to the original '57-'62 pan except for the front seal radius. There is also a #359942 pan, which is identical to the original '63-'74 production pan except for the front seal radius.

The "Z28" pan with the side rails for the windage tray is #465220, the matching windage tray is #3927136, the main studs for the windage tray (5 required) are #3872718. Also requires #3855152 pump pickup screen, #3876870 upper dipstick tube, and #3951576 dipstick. This same pan was also used on '75-'79 L-82 Corvettes.

I'm not familar with whatever GM Performance Parts is offering.
:beer

JohnZ
02-17-04, 05:14 PM
Thanks John
I learned something today, perhaps that is why my Vette "marks its territory"
I have a Moroso pan, Edelbrock aluminum timing cover and was thinking of trying the one piece gasket; Do you think it will help?
thanks
Craig sr
Craig - The key is to measure the front seal radius (if that's where your leak is) to determine whether the pan needs a "thin" or "thick" front seal. Flip the pan upside down (without gaskets) on a flat surface, and measure from the surface straight up to the pan sealing surface. If it's 2-1/4", it takes the "thin" seal; if it's 2-3/8", it takes the later "thick" seal. The one-piece gaskets work great.
:beer

Tom Bryant
02-17-04, 07:54 PM
Jack,

Must be allright if you have been running it for 2 years. Good price too at $48. vs. $96. for the pan and pickup in Summit. I'll have to get the thick gasket no matter what I do. I can keep the thin one for when I do the engine in the '59. I'll have to check the price on that Z28 pan too.

Tom

Tom Bryant
02-26-04, 02:11 PM
Just got the pan off of the big brown truck. Very nice piece. It's just sitting on the block right here. I'll install it when I have more time. The seller, ASA Performance, was a pleasure to deal with and they have a few more things that would look nice on my engine. I'll probably deal with them again.

Tom Bryant
02-26-04, 02:15 PM
Here's the pickup that comes with this pan. Positive retention with 2 pump cover bolts ends the worry of the pickup ever falling out or changing angle.

Tom Bryant
02-26-04, 02:22 PM
Here's the sump and trap door.This allows oil to reach the sump but not flow back out under hard braking. This trap door is similar to the '57-'62 Corvette pan.

Jack,

2 questions.

1) Is this 7 qts in the pan or 7 qts with filter?

2) Did you have to remark your dip stick?

Thanks,
Tom

bossvette
02-27-04, 09:24 PM
2) Did you have to remark your dip stick?
No you don't
the dipstick depth is controled by the dipstick tube and has nothing to do with the depth of the pan as long as you have the correct tube and stick

Ken
02-27-04, 09:36 PM
Thanks Craig, for clarifying that. I went through similar concerns when I was building my engine. :CAC

Tom Bryant
02-28-04, 07:11 AM
Thanks Craig, for clarifying that. I went through similar concerns when I was building my engine. :CAC
Me too Craig. That makes sense that it would be filled to the full mark. Stick and tube were both out of the same engine so they should be right.

Jack
03-04-04, 03:09 PM
Here's the sump and trap door.This allows oil to reach the sump but not flow back out under hard braking. This trap door is similar to the '57-'62 Corvette pan.

Jack,

2 questions.

1) Is this 7 qts in the pan or 7 qts with filter?

2) Did you have to remark your dip stick?

Thanks,
Tom

TOM:
Been off-line for a bit .. sorry not getting back to you. Your pan & pickup looks just like mine ... not bad ehh? Craig is right. The existing "full" mark is still correct ... you can run it a a quart low on the stick and it'll still have plenty and will be that much further from crank throws. I didn't remark mine. If I recall, mine holds right at 8 qts INCLUDING filter. Just put in 7 qts ... oil-prime the new motor ... then adjust oil 'till right at or just shy of full mark ... then run-in the new cam.

BTW ... my pickup clearance started right at 1/2" (8/16") from pan bottom ... then I added a "main cap oil baffle" ($5 at speedway motors) between pump & main cap ... flat sheetmetal about 1/16" thick. My final clearance right at 7/16". General rule of thumb on clearance is 3/8" (6/16") ... so I'm only 1/16" higher. IMHO ... with about 7 qts in pan I don't think 1/8" extra clearance would hurt a thing ... w/ 7 qts in pan. Also ... you have HI-volume pump, right? I have Hi-vol small block pump but used the standard pressure spring. Also IMHO ... with the Hi-Vol pump it probably don't hurt to have a bit more clearance from a thin-gauge pan. Also ... I loctited & staked the pump plate bolts ... AND I tacked the tube to pump.
JACK:gap

Blade
03-04-04, 03:38 PM
It ain't like I got a lotta money, I'm just gonna spend what I do have before I die. ;LOL


I agree with you Ken. I cant spend it when I am dead, so I plan on spending prior to that. :D
Neither of you are married are you!

Tom Bryant
03-05-04, 03:00 AM
My pickup was actually a tad too close to the pan and I needed to tweek it to get 3/8 clearance.

Tom Bryant
05-03-04, 08:52 PM
Just a quicky to let everyone know that this project isn't dead. It's just on hold until Cruise-Fest is CAC history. Every spare minute has been going into CruiseFest but it will be here and gone before we know it.

Here's a picture of the completed short block.

Tom

Tom Bryant
08-03-04, 03:09 PM
Ok. Here we go again. I took the heads apart today. Next step is to take them to the machine shop for cleaning and crack checking. Everything looked good. The valves seemed to have very little play and were all in good condition. Valve seats were in good condition too. No pulled studs or broken springs either. No sign of excessive wear anywhere. I may be able to get by with just a straight rebuild with the exception of better springs and a 3 angle valve job. I'll also port match them after they are clean and before the machine work is done.

Tom

Tom Bryant
08-08-04, 11:05 PM
Does anyone have an opinion as to weather I should keep the valve rotators on the exhaust valves or just run standard retainers. Looking at the wear on the retainers I'm thinking new with the new springs. I'm taking the whole mess to the machine shop tomorrow and get their opinion as to the valves and guides. The intakes have some wear on the stems and all seem to have a little play in the guides.

Tom

JohnZ
08-09-04, 05:59 PM
I've never used the rotators on any engine I built - never saw a need, never burned an exhaust valve.

Note: 1973-77 engines used P/N 6263796 springs (shorter free length) on the exhausts, to provide the same open and closed pressure with rotators as the later '68-'91 P/N 3911068 springs, used without rotators (80# closed, 200# open @ 1.25" installed height). The 3911068 springs are still available from GM (1.239" O.D., Free Length 2.027", 0.177" wire diameter). After 1977, the exhaust valve spring pockets were machined deeper so the 3911068 springs could be used for both intake and exhaust; with those heads, either rotators or an equivalent shim must be used under the exhaust valve spring to achieve correct pressures.
:beer

Tom Bryant
08-09-04, 06:19 PM
I noticed that the exhaust springs were shorter. These are Jan. '72 cast heads. Like you, I have never burned an exhaust valve. I think I'll probably just go with regular retainers and all the same length springs.

Thanks John.

Tom Bryant
08-19-04, 12:39 PM
I talked to my machine shop guy today and he said the valves were showing wear on the stems and the exhaust guides were a little loose. They magged ok and the exhaust seats are already hardened type. We decided to go with new stock type valves since it is just a mild engine and upgrade the springs and trash the rotators. They have a better spring that works well with mild cams and won't pull the studs if I run it out to 6000 or so in a moment of exuberance. :D Me? ;LOL We also talked CR and head gaskets. We might have to do a clean-up cut to set CR where I want it. He will be calling me today or tomorrow, I hope, with a quote. Then I'll pick them up so I can do the port matching and clean up the bowl areas before the machine work begins.

I have a feeling that I'll be in the 60-75% area of the price of a set of new Vortec heads. That's close enough to make me think I should just go with new heads BUT.....

1) I would need a new intake. Vortec intakes. either from Edelbrock or GM are nearly twice what a basic Performer manifold runs, plus I already have that Offenhauser.

2) I can't use the GM divorced type choke on that OEM Holley I have with a new intake so why mess with the old Holley. New intake plus new carb = about $500.

3) I remember Hot Rod said there was a head part number released for Vortecs drilled for both type manifolds. Sounded like just the ticket until I read that you must use a raised runner or Vortec type intake. Older intakes will not have enough lip at the top of the intake runner to provide enough gasket sealing surface for street use. In other words, a vacuum leak waiting to happen.

So just buying the Vortec heads is only part of the cost of the change-over. For what I'm doing I think I'll stick with my old heads unless the quote is way too high.

Tom

Tom Bryant
08-23-04, 03:02 PM
I just brought the heads home all clean and magged. Now I need to plan out my grinding. I've been reading a lot on the subject and a few rather minor mods seem to be all that I will need for this mild engine.

Here are a few pics of the clean heads. I'll show the mods as I do them.

Tom

Tom Bryant
08-25-04, 01:04 PM
The UPS guy just dropped off my rocker arms I bought on Ebay. Cost plus shipping saved me $10.50 off what I could get them from my local GM dealer where my wife works and $20. less than Pace. I did order the matching pushrods locally and had them the next day. Here is a picture and the catalog discriptions. The old rocker is on the left and the ZZ4 self aligning is on the right. You can see the bumps on the stamping that keep the rocker centered on the valve stem. I think these are an excellent choice for this type of engine. Rollers would be better but that is against the theme of keeping this budget build cheap without sacrificing quality and durability.

http://www.gmgoodwrench.com/perfparts/images/global/spacer.gif12495490 Rocker Arm Kit
These small block V8 or V6 rocker arm kits include 16 stamped steel rockers with pivot balls and nuts. These self-aligning high quality rockers have a nominal 1:5.1 ratio. Use P/N 10089648 for single service part.

Technical Notes: Use on all V8 models except 1997 or newer LS1 design engines. This kit includes 16 pieces of P/N 10089648.

12495491 Heavy Duty Pushrod Kit, Standard Length
These 5/16" O.D. pushrods are standard length (7.724") and have a .075" wall compared to .060" wall on production ones. These pushrods are used on all non-roller tappet camshafts 1955 and newer. This heavy-duty pushrod is manufactured from 1010 steel and hardened. For single pushrod replacement use P/N 14044874.

You can see the hardened tip in the picture.

Jack
08-29-04, 08:30 PM
The UPS guy just dropped off my rocker arms ...

The old rocker is on the left and the ZZ4 self aligning is on the right.

I think these are an excellent choice for this type of engine.
I agree Tom ... and with self-aligning you won't have to fiddle with guide plates and their studs either.

I know this is late ... but there are lower cost sources for Vortec intakes($125-$170). http://www.performancedepot.com/partnumber_search.php?partnumber=52007&compid=99999&dealer=no&x=24&y=0 Professional Products P/Ns 52007 (performer clone), 52028 (airgap clone), 52033 (victor clone).
JACK:gap

Tom Bryant
09-28-04, 12:29 PM
Well, one down and one to go. Got the intake ports evened up a little. The chambers are mostly polished and the exhaust ports are polished. The big casting goobers are removed from the ports. The short side radius is smoothed over and the bowls blended while retaining the hourglass shape for a venturi effect. The oil drainbacks on the one head were almost completely casting flashed over and the casting core mould lines are very deep in the ports. I didn't hog them out far enough to remove them. That would have been way too much material to remove for this engine's intended use. Basically this was a clean up and polish to improve the flow and reduce sharp edges that would cause detonation job. Intake ports were not polished. These smallish exhaust ports are real tight around the valve guides and even with my smallest tools I'd have to remove way to much guide boss material to polish those areas fully. I'm sure they will be fine for this mild build.

I'm getting all new valves, new better than stock springs (20# more open pressure) and exhaust guides and good seals. They will also be surfaced to set the CR at 9.25-9.5 and a 3 angle valve job all cut at the same time. (All angles not all seats). I will have around $400. in them but that's still a couple hundred less than new Vortecs and intake, even at the best discounts.

These castings were the roughest I've ever seen but the 350 2bbl engines weren't designed for anything more than moving grandma to church and back.

I wanted to use the cast iron rams horn manifolds but they are as rough as the heads inside. Also one has an internal casting bump in the ram tube from an end cylinder that blocks that passage by about 50%. Extrude honing would clean them up and polish them inside but $685. seems a few $$ on the high side to me. I don't want to use headers unless I get coated ones. A friend had 3 or 4 sets on his '72 shortbed before he found ones that would clear speed bumps on a lowered truck. As you might guess these were also the most expensive ones he had to buy.
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/product_view_full_img.asp?image%5Ffile=9300300%2Ejpg&product%5Fname=Cast+Iron+Small+Block+Chevy+%26quot%3BRam%26quot%3B+Type%3CBR%3EExhaust+Manifold&base%5Fno=9300300&mscssid=K4LVRJXPXAUJ8LTG84R1D5JEG8DMEKD9
I also got very excited about this new product from Speedway Motors. Cost is again a problem. http://www.speedwaymotors.com/product_view_full_img.asp?image%5Ffile=9300300%2Ejpg&product%5Fname=Cast+Iron+Small+Block+Chevy+%26quot%3BRam%26quot%3B+Type%3CBR%3EExhaust+Manifold&base%5Fno=9300300&mscssid=K4LVRJXPXAUJ8LTG84R1D5JEG8DMEKD9

I think I found the perfect solution under the hood of the '81. The tubing manifolds they started using in '81 would be perfect with the AIR tubes removed. The ports match in size and the exhaust system I already have should bolt up as they are the same dimensions as the cast manifolds. Now all I need to do is find some and verify the downpipe size..

Tom

JohnZ
09-28-04, 02:32 PM
Lookin' good! You'll get some payoff from the exhaust port work - that's the point of most restriction to airflow. What's the deal on the Speedway exhaust manifolds? The link brought up a photo, but nothing else.

:beer

Tom Bryant
09-28-04, 02:41 PM
oops. Sorry about that John. They are a new street rod product. I just copied the blown up picture link. Here's the listing. These aren't totally out of the picture yet. The more I look at them the cooler they get and I liked them right off.

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/xq/asp/strBase_List./hilt./source.2192/base_no.9300300/str_base_no.91088200%2C91089413%2C91112202%2C91112206%2C91112211%2C91112221%2C91112232%2C9134013%2C9 1615810%2C91615813%2C91639501%2C91639600%2C91657050%2C91657075%2C9180028%2C9180033%2C9190920%2C93001 06%2C9300300%2C97493100%2C/header_title.New+Products%2DNew+Street+Rod+Products/page_name.prod%5Flist%5Fdisplay.asp/search_type.L1%7E493/search_option./deptsearch./deptSearch_id./dept_id./dept_id_p./dept_name./dept_name_p./ShowImages.yes/sq.60/cont.1/intPgNo.4/redirect./qx/product.htm

Tom Bryant
10-10-04, 07:55 PM
I just bought these '81 manifolds from Chris (69MyWay). I'm going to remove the heat shields, the AIR tubes and weld up the holes. Then clean them up and see what they look like. They are stainless so I'm hoping for the best. They are the same basic demensions as the iron manifolds so the standard front pipes I have should bolt right on. (2")
The tube size is 1 1/2" and the ports after I reshaped them slightly and polished them ended up just slightly smaller than 1 1/2". Should be a good match and unlike common headers these GM tubular manifolds don't leak. I think they will look pretty nice and perform much better than the old crusty and lumpy rams horns.

http://i6.ebayimg.com/02/i/02/92/01/95_1_b.JPG

69MyWay
10-10-04, 08:28 PM
:upthumbs Shipping out on Monday. You should see them soon.

Tom Bryant
10-10-04, 08:37 PM
Thanks Chris. My goal for tomorrow is to get the heads finished so I can take them back over to H&W for the valve job and surfacing.

Tom

Tom Bryant
10-10-04, 11:55 PM
These are cool too but I'll bet they cost a lot more that the ones i got.

http://www.corvette.co.uk/headers.html

Ken
10-11-04, 12:00 AM
They are cool Tom. I've been seein' variations on that theme all around lately; one of the major manufacturers had a booth at the California Hot Rod Reunion last week and they caught my eye. Of course, being with Hal, who owns a '62, may have had something to do with that. :L

Tom Bryant
10-11-04, 08:18 AM
They would look sharp on a '62. I like the way they took the middle tubes up over the top to the outside of the collector to get equal length. That also gives them a unique look. The page says 695 plus VAT (value added tax?) I assume that is pounds sterling not dollars.

Tom

Tom Bryant
10-17-04, 08:02 PM
Here are the 1981 L81 shorty header manifolds I got from 69MyWay (Chris). I have removed the galvanized sheet metal heat shields and also the AIR tubes from the one. A cut off wheel made short work of them. I also started to clean up the one with a 3M scuffing wheel in the die grinder. I won't be able to get down in the tight areas though. I may take them to be media blasted or try different liqued cleaners. They are stainless but a little rough textured due to the fact the tubing is cast stainless. It would be nice if I could buff them but I don't think it is possible to get down in the tight areas enough to make them look nice. I will probably coat them instead.

The welds are pretty rough but a little grinding should take care of that. The welds on the inner flanges are very thick. I think I can remove at least 1/2 of it to match the ports without risking strength. I also found a fine crack in the weld on one of the collectors. I'll grind that off some and have it repaired when I take them to get the AIR tube holes welded closed. After the tube holes are welded closed I'll remove the short stub of tubing that protrudes inside the header tubes.

Tom Bryant
10-17-04, 08:09 PM
Here are the heads all ready to go back to the machine shop for machine work. Now if that cursed water heater hadn't stolen my engine project money I could take them over there tomorrow.:mad

Oh well. It isn't like I can't find anything else to do.

Ken
10-17-04, 08:13 PM
Lookin' good Tom! :upthumbs

Rowdy1
10-17-04, 08:59 PM
I've been putting off the last and very important job of headers on my 62. I get plenty of air in, but not out. I'm using the stock 2 1/2" rams with some metal removal to better match the heads. I have Trick Flow heads and NOBODY makes a bolt up header for them to fit a 62. At best, I have to buy a set, have them fitted so I can access the spark plugs, that being the problem I should add, send them out for coating and reinstall. There are headers made for the 62 SB but not with the angle of the spark plug on the Trick Flows. I looked on the sites you posted Tom and once again, 63 and newer. A true tuned header would have one tube out and over the frame which would also require me to mount the battery in the trunk and adapt a mini starter. Then I still "may" have a ground clearance problem with the collector. If I had access to a lift for a month or so I'd be more up for the challenge but I don't any more:( I "sort of" like the looks of the UK's, I'd like them even more if they had a set that bolted up with the clearance issue I have, would save me a lot of time & $$$$$. Feel free to chime in with any idea's Ken, Tom, John,......anyone?

Ken
10-17-04, 09:10 PM
You're *****in' about the cost of a custom set of headers for your beloved '62 and yet you go out and buy a Harley-Davidson?? Well, you did ask, Lou ... ;LOL

Rowdy1
10-17-04, 09:30 PM
You're *****in' about the cost of a custom set of headers for your beloved '62 and yet you go out and buy a Harley-Davidson?? Well, you did ask, Lou ... ;LOLI tend to procrastinate but once I make up my mind, I go all out. If I still had access to a shop and a lift as I did when I built the engine, it would have been done by now. Until I get the results for my back and see where that's going, I'm completely on hold, hell, I can't even wash the 62 or the Harley, or the truck or the trailer or the boat, oh wait, THAT"S RIGHT...........I "almost" forgot, I HAD to sell the boat to GET the Harley:upthumbs ;LOL But I DO Thank You for the ";help " Bro;)

Tom Bryant
10-17-04, 09:37 PM
My '59 has the 2 1/2" fuelie manifolds too. I had a set of Doug's on there once but the collector was too low. I have been thinking of fabbing my own set of tri-Ys to get a proper fit to the factory off road exhaust when I get around to working on this car. Do they make header flanges for the Trick Flow heads?

Might just be that a pair of flanges, a stack of mandrel bends, a cut off saw and a mig or tig welder is your best bet. Just think of all the fun you could have.

Tom

Tom Bryant
10-28-04, 01:35 PM
I dropped off the heads on Tuesday. Now I just waite for the call. I told him to take .020 off the surface. That will set the static compression ratio at 9.3:1 with a .020 compressed thickness head gasket.

I spent all of one day cleaning the garage of all the iron dust. That stuff goes everywhere.:eek

Tom

Tom Bryant
11-23-04, 02:03 PM
:J My heads are done. Now I have to find time to go get them.

Ken
11-23-04, 02:52 PM
TIME <<--- There it is Tom! :L

Tom Bryant
11-29-04, 12:29 PM
Thanks Ken. I used that time you found me this morning and picked up the heads. I have a little hand work to do around the edges of the chambers to emery off the sharp edge left from the milling process. Then paint them and they will be ready to go on.

Tom Bryant
11-29-04, 03:34 PM
I have the paint drying on one head right now so I thought I'd add up the bill to see what this thing cost. All I need to do is go get some thread sealer for the head bolts and I can put on the heads. At that point I can stamp the engine DONE.

I still have the carb and distributor to rebuild yet but if anyone was following this rebuild as a guide to rebuilding their L48 or L98 they would be about the same for the basic engine assembly and they should be able to duplicate the results. This will be a good performing engine that should make cruising a pleasure.

So what did my $500. rebuild come out to?

$1249.91

Not too shabby when compared to your average crate engine. I saved a lot of money and had a lot of fun doing it myself. I hope it runs. :bu

Attached is the complete summary of the build for your viewing pleasure. I'll post a picture when I get the heads on.

Thanks for sharing in this thread. It's been fun.

Tom

JohnZ
11-29-04, 03:51 PM
Very cool, and nice detailed cost summary; I'm sure she'll run like a top! :D

Tom Bryant
11-29-04, 06:20 PM
Thanks John. I just couldn't resist setting everything together for a quick photo. I never did get out to get some thread sealer.
Got the heads deburred and painted though.

Ken
11-29-04, 07:00 PM
All at about a tenth of the cost of mine. :upthumbs

Tom Bryant
11-29-04, 07:25 PM
All at about a tenth of the cost of mine. :upthumbs It should move the old stepside along pretty well but mine won't do what yours will. :eek :bu

Jack
12-09-04, 11:40 AM
DONE. $1249.91Attached is the complete summary of the build for your viewing pleasure. Tom:
Sounds good! I looked at your summary ... wondering if crank or rods needed any machinework?... and if so, was it priced into the shortblock subtotal?
JACK:gap

Tom Bryant
12-10-04, 02:07 PM
Jack,

I miked the crank journals and they were as round as they could be and not tapered so I just polished them myself. See post #100 in this thread. I also miked the rods and they too were as round as they could be so I had to ask myself what would I gain by having them resized? I decided to save some money. I also put the new bearings in the rods and torqued them to check the clearance by inside miking the torqued bearings and outside miking the rod journal they will go on. All checked out perfectly.

Tom

Jack
12-11-04, 12:58 PM
Tom:
Hey, if they're round ... they're round. Glad it worked out that way. I think you're really gonna be happy with your combo. Good Job:upthumbs!
JACK:gap

Tom Bryant
12-11-04, 02:08 PM
Speaking of combos, I have a short water pump and pulleys but it looks like everything I have for the P/S is for a long pump. I have 2 pumps and a few different brackets. I'm going to have to dump out all of the boxes and clean out the cab just to see what I have. A trip to th ejunk yard may be in my future. Speaking of that I need to find that alternator bracket again. :L

Jack
12-12-04, 04:58 PM
Tom:

I have an aluminum race car ps pump bracket for short wp. PS pump bracket bolts to front of driver side sbc head ... this uses ONLY a bare pump (saginaw) w/ remote tank. Can use with any wp ... flat washers under bracket move it out for long wp. I swapped ours for block mount. I'm not gonna use the spare.



Spare bracket is the one on right

http://207.89.146.11/sweetmfg2003/update_images/301-30030.jpg



Bracket is for this kind of pump

http://207.89.146.11/sweetmfg2003/update_images/301-30010.jpg

JACK:gap

bossvette
12-12-04, 05:18 PM
I've got a milkbox or two of brackets and pulleys also

Tom Bryant
12-12-04, 05:31 PM
Jack,

One that I have is a flat steel bracket out of the '70s someplace, It sets the pump too far forward and bolts to the back of the pump. Does yours bolt to the front? Also can you run a stock p/s pump with a remote reservoir? I've had them apart before but it's been years ago. I have been thinking about a custom aluminum reservoir for the radiator so a matching one for the p/s would be cool.

The stock brack for a short pump has a cradle type mount with an additional rear brace. I'm goin to dig through everything I have tomorrow and see what I have. I may need to dig through Craigs box-O-brackets too.

Jack
12-14-04, 01:09 AM
Jack,Does yours bolt to the front? My bracket sandwiches between back of bare pump and front of driver side head ... bracket bolts to head's accessory bracket holes with countersinks & pump is through-bolted into bracket.


Jack,Also can you run a stock p/s pump with a remote reservoir? Yes ... you either get a race pump (such as Sweet) or take a newer (smaller) style pump & toss OE tank & plumb it for AN fittings & swap serp pulley for V. The Sweet pump at link above is the newer smaller OE pump. The pump like what's in your later C3 vette is the older larger pump and will NOT bolt up to my race bracket ... even if reservoir removed it will not bolt up ... must use later smaller pump. I dunno what year they started but plenty in junkyards ... I think my 89 Ciera had late small pump ... saw one on 93 caddy last week ... AFAIK all had plastic tanks & serpentine pulleys.

FYI ... New race ps pump tanks are $25 - $60 ... would look cool alongside similar rad overflow tank. New AN ps hoses & fittings another $50 - $80. My bracket no charge. Most run AN8 or AN10 tank-to-pump and rest are AN6.

BTW ... Speedway Motors P/N 913-32902 is a flat steel bracket that bolts to back of larger older pump's TANK ... then bolts to driver side sbc BLOCK ... for short wp only ... $25.
JACK:gap

JohnZ
12-14-04, 05:07 PM
When I built my Grand Sport, I couldn't use the production power steering pump and mounting, as the pulley would interfere with the jointed Borgeson steering shaft to my Appleton power rack & pinion. I used a GM mini-pump from an S-10 truck, mounted on the Moroso sprint-car adapter plate, directly to the front of the left cylinder head, with a Speedway Motors remote reservoir and Aeroquip lines and fittings. Pics are a bit grainy - they're scans of old prints - here's the accessory drive as I was developing it:

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-6/13522/GSengaccy2.jpg

Here's the finished installation in the car - the remote reservoir is on the far side inner fender:

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-2/13522/200222815326-0-GSeng.jpg

:beer

Tom Bryant
12-15-04, 12:43 PM
That's a slick setup. But of course the whole car is just amazing.

Tom Bryant
12-16-04, 09:20 AM
I'm getting more confused by the second. Maybe I should heed my own advice. A while ago I advised one of the guys on my truck forum to go to the boneyard and get all of the pulleys and brackets off of the same truck so everything will line up.

Anyway, I was looking at the Speedway bracket in their catalog and the inset picture with the bracket mounted on the pump looks like my pump. The bracket I have in the attached photo mounts to the pump in the same manner and to the block in the same '57 Chevy motor mount holes. I don't know if you can see it in the pic but mine has a slight rear offset that actually mounts the pump slightly closer to the block. This puts the rear groove of the pulley 1/2 groove width to far forward to line up with the crank and water pump. I have another pump with a single groove pulley and with it mounted on the same bracket it is a whole groove out to far. Maybe the problem is the pulley offset.

Jack
12-17-04, 01:05 AM
I have another pump with a single groove pulley and with it mounted on the same bracket it is a whole groove out to far. Maybe the problem is the pulley offset.I think you're onto it Tom. Maybe if you use a double groove crank pulley ... & use the forward groove to drive the psp ... maybe you'd have it licked. John's right, as my 97 Sonoma (S10) has the same small psp we're referring to ... same type bracket setup as my spare I offer. Oh yea!, John's GS setup sure looks sweet ... lotsa supertrucks around here run Appleton rack too ... very stout piece.
JACK:gap

JohnZ
12-17-04, 03:49 PM
I had to have the 3-groove water pump pulley custom-made (see upper pic that shows the accessory drive from the front) for the power steering pump drive; needed one diameter for the two A/C compressor and alternator belt grooves, and a smaller-diameter drive for the P/S pump. I designed the pulley I needed and Speed & Performance in Mena, Arkansas made it for me from my drawing.

:beer

Tom Bryant
12-18-04, 02:28 AM
I have a double groove crank pulley on it. Some of these era cars had an additional pulley that went inside the double groove crank pulley to give it a 3rd groove. Maybe that's what I need. We'll see what's in Craigs box of brackets. He might have the magic combo in there.

I'd sure like to have a drive setup like Johns. It probably costs as much as I have in the rest of the engine. :L

Tom

Tom Bryant
09-18-05, 11:08 AM
The saga continues. :L

I found a box of pulleys in the bed and after having several different combos on the engine I decided that the ones I originally had on were right and the p/s mount is for a long pump. All I need is a p/s mount for a short water pump and I'm in. I love fall. It's the perfect time to go junk yarding except for the wasp nests.

Tom Bryant
09-26-05, 11:22 PM
Tonight I resprayed the front frame and suspension parts John Deere Blitz Black. I love it. The gloss that was on the rough surface of the frame rails looked tacky but the low gloss looks like factory. I'll take a picture tomorrow.

Now I'm ready to put in the new brake lines when they arrive from Harmon's. As per JohnZ's advice I went with the mild steel instead of the stainless. A shiney line is not worth the risk of a crack in the flare.

I have a new front pump seal for the THM400 so it won't be long before the engine goes in the frame.

Tom

Tom Bryant
02-12-06, 07:41 PM
I got the P/S mount figured out. It was rather easy once I looked under the hood of the '81 Corvette. I simply bought a repro p/s mount from Zip and a '81 pulley from GMPD and that was that. The '81 uses a short water pump. Now everything will line up with 2 belts running right where they are supposed to.

Since the engine is basically done and that was the purpose of this thread I'm going to close this thread and leave a link the the Old Yeller Truck thread where the saga of getting this truck up and running continues.

Click here to go to the truck thread--------->X (http://www.corvetteactioncenter.com/forums/showthread.php?p=678041#post678041)

Thanks everyone for your interest.

Tom