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UvetteIrace
01-15-03, 04:43 PM
Hi gang -

New to the forum here, and before actually signing on board, I've read many of the inputs people have, and truly amazed at the high level of knowledge about cars and Corvettes. Most importantly, the responses to the comments and questions have been so amenable compelling me to join.

Now that im ready to purchase my first Corvette, I would like to do it right b/c this maybe the only time. I have boiled the corvette I want into two - the ZR1 or the C5 (more than likely a 2003). In either case, the price will be somewhat the same, but obviously the ZR1 will be a used car. Since I dont have the finance for both, I must choose one of the two.

My question is about the ZR1. If the ZR1 is accepted by the Corvette world and the non-corvette world as the best Corvette (King of the Hill), why is the engine based on OHC, when (and please correct me if I'm wrong) the Corvette is the "torchbearer" for the "push-rod OHV engines". To my understanding there is or has been a big debate on which engine type is a better: Overhead valves or Overhead cams. The former offers torque and HP (displacment), whereas the latter offers mostly HP (rpms). Is that right?

Why did the corvette people decide to put an OHC engine in making the 'best Corvette ever'. And why does the corvette world accept the ZR1 as the best corvette, YES IT IS A GREAT CAR, but a denial in the debate over the superiority of the push-rod OHV against the OHC?

WHAT REASONING(S) ABOUT CORVETTES AM I MISSING?

ZR-1 Fanatic
01-16-03, 12:08 PM
We are fortunate and blessed to own both a ZR-1 and a C5, and either would make a great car for you. Some other questions that may affect your decision are:

Daily driver?
Is gas mileage an issue?
Auto or 6 speed transmission?
Do you anticipate driving with the top off regularly? (I'm assuming you would buy a C5 coupe)
Is luggage space an issue?
Is rarity factor an issue?

For a daily driver the C5 is a better choice, IMO. It gets way better mileage (the current averages on both cars are 15 mpg for the ZR-1 and 21+ for the C5). The C5 has LOTS of luggage space; we take it shopping for groceries and never run out of room, and we have 3 teenage boys! The C5 chassis is much stiffer than the C4, and taking the top off the C5 makes no difference in the ride. Take the top off a C4 and it feels like it's going to come apart, especially at speeds below 50. The ZR-1 will outrun the C5, but not by a whole lot until you get seriously into triple digit speeds (not that we would ever do anything illegal... :)

Having said that, I drive the ZR-1 everyday to work unless there's precipitation in the forecast, and if we had to divest our collection it would be the last one to go (although Liz may argue that). As you point out, it is the only Corvette to ever have an OHC engine with 4 valves per cylinder. It makes a sound like no other V8, and makes the radio obsolete. It has a personality that the C5 doesn't, and it's hard to describe except to say that it just feels more like a race car. There were only 6939 made, and unfortunately there have been several hundred totaled. They will be sought after in the future and, IMO, the price will rise over time from current ridiculously low levels.

The best way to find out what YOU want is to drive both; that will probably make up your mind.

BTW, there are many who argue that the Z06 is the best Vette yet, and I'm sure they'll chime in here.

Rob
01-16-03, 12:27 PM
Good topic and questions!

I think that the reason why the ZR-1 is known as the "Best Corvette ever" or whatever the slogan may be is because, for it's day, the technology was pretty advanced and the performance pushed the Corvette into the competitive territory of European exotics that cost twice as much as the MSRP of a ZR-1.

That technology and that performance commanded respect throughout the automotive community. However, as technology has progressed, the whole concept of the LT5 engine literally lit a fire under the rear-ends of GM Powertrain to encourage them to find a way of making the pushrod motor just as powerful, and efficient as the LT5 was, but at a much less cost in terms of development, production and mass/weight. For more background information, I would highly suggest running through this thread:

http://corvetteactioncenter.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14104

JT ZR-Won
01-16-03, 12:30 PM
I think Barry said it perfectly. They only way to find out is to drive both. I also agree that if it is a daily driver I would probably chose a C5 simply for the increase in comfort level. The ZR-1 does have a very unique sound like none other and performs amazingly for a car that's been out for 13 years.

You might want to check out a book by Anthony Young called, "The Heart of the Beast." It will explain a lot of unanswered questions concerning the idea behind the making of the ZR-1.

The good news is that you're in a "win-win" situation:D. Good luck in your choice.

Jay

UvetteIrace
01-16-03, 12:37 PM
Hey Thanks for your response : For minute there I thought i was not welcome in this very welcoming forum.

And yes, i was thinking about a daily driver, and the dimensions of the C5 are more suitable for daily driving compared to the C4 (as my research goes on). Is the leg room in the C5 truly more wider than the C4 b/c they moved the transmission to the back?? If they did, why does the back have so much room as well?

In any event, I am really crossed between Calling Rick Daniels right now and request a new C5 from the factory ( and I want to do the NCM thing to make it special), and this really "drop dead gorgeous" 1991 White ZR1 with low miles (16k) for a price of 26k. Im thinking i could low ball him to 20k or even 22k which i can pay out right in cash.

The only thing is Im the type who hates hand-me downs. I have to be the first in, howver, thsi ZR1 is really beautiful:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Rob
01-16-03, 12:46 PM
You're more than welcome here. You don't have to be an owner to be a member here.

There is A LOT more leg room in the C5, however, if you really love the ZR-1, take it for a test drive and test drive a C5. They are two completely different Corvettes from the ground up. See which one pulls at your heart strings more. Whichever one it is, is the Corvette for you.

I love the C5....but for obvious reasons, I'm quite partial to "The Corvette From Hell" ;)

UvetteIrace
01-16-03, 12:51 PM
:beer hey rob thanks for the exciting links for me to check out . . . and yes I read somewhere (i think a mag called " Corvette Magazine" about the logistics concerning the production aspects of a powerful OHC engine - thats why both the ZR1 and the Nissan 300z are gone of the do-do bird. Thank goodness though, that the ZR1 came out the best from that catagory.

JT-ZR-won::s YOU HAVE A GREAT ZR1 i think you know exactly what i feel when I see that ZR1 that caught my eye.

:cool :crazy :love

Vettelt193
01-16-03, 01:02 PM
You may just want to do a C4 Vs. C5 comparison first... then look at the benefits of the ZR1... My Dad has a '98 Pace Car, and when I drive it, it feels more like a cruising, easy going (but fast) 'vette. When I drive my C4, it feels more like I want it to... very race car like... The lack of leg room and tight interior actually makes it feel more sporty, and better to me... but, for my father, It is a chore just to get in and out of my car. It isn't that much fun owning a car that is difficult to use, so one of the things to look at before even considering a ZR1 is the way the car feels to you. After all, you will probably only push the limits of the car 5% of the time, it is the other 95% (normal driving) that matters.... If you want the cruiser feel: C5, race car feel:C4/ZR1

secondchance
01-16-03, 01:24 PM
Hi, UvetteIrace, welcome to the forum.
To answer your question, in my opinion, OHV 's advantages are simplicity, lightweight and relatively inexpensive to manufacture and repair. As far as torque is concerned, I think it is more of a function of displacement, all things being equal (I know I°Įm over simplifying here).
Actually, its weakness is, for high rpm hp, one has to sacrifice low rpm torque (remember old built up muscle cars running on the verge of stalling at idle?) and vice a versa. Reason for this, is for high rpm, intake and exhaust valve openings have to be large as possible and stay open as long as possible for maximum amount of air/fuel mixture delivery. However, at low rpm same large opening results in relatively slow intake velocity creating poor vaporization and end result is loss of low rpm torque. Smaller valve area solves low-end torque but restricts high rpm horsepower. The same issue applies to OHC engine also. However, Lotus side stepped this trade off by resorting to utilizing one set of intake and exhaust at low rpm (smaller area = high speed intake at low rpm) and using all 4 valves at 2500 rpm and up (max area for high rpm fuel delivery). Some modern engines from Honda and BMW uses variable valve timing to keep valves open longer to address the same issue.
Another advantage of OHC is reduced reciprocating mass due to using spinning of camshaft to operate valves directly as opposed to single camshaft in the V and using rods to operate valves. Incase of 4 valve V8, you end up with 2 camshafts per bank, 4 camshafts total.
Independent of above comments, any motor, OHC or OHV, careful manufacturing is also crucial to high rpm and long term durability, especially when running at high rpm for long periods of time. In this respect, LT-5 was manufactured with unusually high level of care. Also, its split block design with lower block acting as a girder for the crankshaft minimizes crankshaft wobble, again resulting in high rpm capability and durability.
Frankly, apart from motors, I think C5 is superior to C4 in terms of structural integrity and handling. As far as motor is concerned, despite LS6 posting similar numbers for hp and torque, anyone who understands engineering will pick LT-5 for its logical, superior engineering. ®ý drag racing is one thing but 24 hour endurance run will separate a good engine and a great engine.
This does not mean you should go for a ZR-1. However, since you asked, I thought I would share my understanding in this subject.
My 91 ZR-1 and now 94 was and is my daily driver.
BTW, I don't understand how to fill out the survey.
Hi, Vettelt93, somehow I knew you would join in on this one.

UvetteIrace
01-16-03, 01:48 PM
oops :duh sorry about my survey/poll, when i started i wasn't really sure how it functioned . . . but basically: I wanted to know from people whether they thought OHV gives Power or Speed, or Power and Speed, and is it effectively efficient (in operation - less mechanical breakdown, I understand that the push-rod have many intricate moving parts, ehnce more prone to breakdowns), and the same question and answers for the OHC.

In any event thanks for your inputs (secondchance + vettelt193) . . . thats an interesting aspect you pointed out concerning the issue of compactness with the ZR1. It would truly feel like your ina fighter jet, and certianly have the speed for it.

I also like the instrumentation of the ZR1's, it truly looks like a cock-pit of an F-16 tomcat.

Secondchance, thanks for that in depth anaysis (basically an education) in the complex system of automotive engines - im truly learning everyday. An yes I do want a daily driver, and it sems that the C5 has been designed and built to address that situation. From the many articles I have read about Corvettes is space/leg room . . . but vettelt193 has offered a new insight for me regarding the tight feel.

thanks again ;worship

USA ZR1
01-16-03, 02:49 PM
I guess it depends how tall you are when discussing the "tightness" of a C4 interior. I'm 5'8" and my ZR-1 has tons of room for me. The lower door sills on a C5 allow easier entry but I like the seats and seating position of a ZR-1 better. Different strokes,,,,
Barry,15mpg average??? Your right foot needs to go on a diet.
Sheesh,my modified car gets that in town and easily knocks down 25+mpg on the road,,with 4.09 cogs.

Adam Boca
01-16-03, 02:52 PM
You asked about a couple questions about leg room and trunk space. Below you will see a comparo I just did here at the NCM. I know the pics are not that great, but an idea of floor space, trunk space, and engine. Enjoy!

Here is a C4 floor with a 12' Ruler. It almost got hung up.
http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL62/764329/1330544/18580583.jpg

Here is the C5 floor with the same ruler.
http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL62/764329/1330544/18580573.jpg

Here is the C4 Floor with a 15 inch ruler. The pictures do not show it to well, but here the ruler did not touch the floor board.
http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL62/764329/1330544/18580577.jpg

The C5 Floor, as you can tell, the C5 does have more floor room due to the tranny being moved to the rear.
http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL62/764329/1330544/18580568.jpg

Here is trunk area on the C4.
http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL62/764329/1330544/18580554.jpg

Here is the trunk of the C5.
http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL62/764329/1330544/18580548.jpg

ENGINES!

C4 LT5
http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL62/764329/1330544/18580558.jpg

C5 LS1
http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL62/764329/1330544/18580561.jpg

I will comment more on my opinion when I get home shortly.

ZR-1 Fanatic
01-16-03, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by USA ZR1
IBarry,15mpg average??? Your right foot needs to go on a diet.
Sheesh,my modified car gets that in town and easily knocks down 25+mpg on the road,,with 4.09 cogs.

Cruising on the freeway at 80 I can get mid 20's for mileage, but around town let's just say I do my best to inhibit carbon build-up in the intake....:Steer

Jeffvette
01-16-03, 08:45 PM
I use my Zr-1 for daily driving, hasn't given me any fits or problems, then again it's gotten to be fiesty in doingthe 368 conversion :)

I've driven a few C5's and to me it seemed like I was riding in a Caddilac and the driving response felt liek a Caddy Granted it was quick, but everything was to plush. The C4 on the other hand, has a cockpit feel to it, it gives you feedback on the road, the handling is still awesome.

The choice for me was a ZR-1 as I have dreamed of owning one since I had gotten a ride in oe when I was 13. Took me 10 years to get one, but I got it.

ZROne
01-16-03, 09:16 PM
Well, the reasoning you are missing is that GM is in the business of selling cars as cheaply as it can. The corporation touted the LT-5 engine as an engineering tour de force (which it was), the people loved it - and the press drooled over it.... and GM canned it because it became too expensive to manufacture (since it was outsourced).

They took the lessons there and made the Northstar.

The people who like to claim the pushrod smallblock is the height of technology are the same ones who would like you to buy Suburban's because they are cheap to make and cost a mint to buy. :)

Basically - the LS1/LS6 are fine engines. Probably worthy of much praise. However they are not that sophisticated; and tend to blow up when subjected to lots of stress over a period of time; but for what they are made for - cheap power and easy to replace parts - they shine. The LT-5 route is not cheap to produce or fix.

As for the daily driver debate - I've had a C5 convertible, two ZR1's and a C3 (still have the C3 and my latest ZR1 <g>).

The C5 is flat out much more comfortable than the ZR1 will be. That should be pretty evident to those who drive both. The C5 is a very good daily driver and commuter car. It even gets good gas mileage (my ZR1's get about 15MPG at best).

I have driven both the C5 and my old 1990 ZR1 around the country once (each). The C5 was by far the easiest to just fly around and not feel tired or cramped. A very good cruiser.

The 1990 ZR1 was more fun :) ... and it wasn't too bad around the country, but it's no C5 in terms of comfort. My 1994 ZR1 was actually pretty close in terms of comfort - but it's not anymore <lol>.

The next Vette I get will be a C5 Pace Car most likely (mostly because they will be dirt cheap soon and I don't want to beat the hell out of my ZR1 on these crappy Dallas roads [and Texan drivers]).

sirhC

UvetteIrace
01-17-03, 10:32 AM
ZROne : thanks for sharing your road experiences between the two Vette types.
Hey Adam - I appreciate the comparsion photos, it clarified some thoughts for me about the sizes of the two.

But i thought that the OVC engine was easier to manufacture than the OHV (b/c it has so many parts). So the advanced technology of the LT-5 is not simply based on OHC, but many other contributors are involved in its making as well, right? Its' not just another OHC engine like the ones Japan or Germany produces. Or are OHC engines in general are better than OHV engines b/c it is harder to manufacture, and it is harder to maunfacture b/c it is far more superior in technology to build?

Now my new question is " If I wanted to build from scratch a new car ( just the way Delorean did it, but not for mass production, just for myself), would I be better off manufacturing an engine based on OHC or would i be better off with OHV (V-8 or higher), if I wanted high performances without any sacrifices - Power, Speed, and efficiency/durability.

Or perhaps one can achieve it all in both types of engine, it just matters what new contributing factor(s) one adds to it.

secondchance
01-17-03, 10:53 AM
If I may, let me clarify a few other things. First of all there are 2 types of OHC engines: single OHC and dual OHC. Single OHC can be designed to actuate 2 valves per head or 4 valves perhead. Dual overhead cam setup typically uses one for intake side and one for the exhaust side. OHC set up typically has more components then OHV due to camshafts and drive mechanism needed to run these cams. Also, typically more expensive to manufacture and assemble.
If you want mass production and lower cost, OHV is a cost effective way to go. If you want a motor that produces low end torque AND high end hp and the cost is immaterial, DOHC V8 or V12 is the way to go. Look at Lamboroghinis, Ferraries and Aston Martins.
I totally agree with ZRone's comment that one of the primary reason Chevrolet went to OHV for LS1/LS6 was due to lower cost of OHV. To be fair, another reason was due to relatively lower weight of OHV.
True difference of these to types of design shows up not on the drag strip where engine only needs to perform for 12-14 seconds but in an endurance race lasting hours.
Remember in 1990, Chevrolet set the endurance record w/ stock ZR-1: 24hours @ 175.??? mph. That record was broken last year by VW purpose built prototype. I doubt tha LS6 could achieve the same.
BTW, nothing wrong with Japanese OHC engines, typical displacement is too small for torque and hp. Germans are starting a hp war. Audi RS6(?) produces 450hp and some top of the line Mercedes are producing 400+ hp and 516 lb.ft of torque albeit with help of supercharger.

Remo
01-17-03, 10:57 AM
UvetteIrace,

In your case I would recommend a new C5 for the following reasons:

1. It's an all around more comfortable car.
2. It's performance is excellant.
3. If you're worried about the max performance thing - then get a Z06.
4. You don't have to worry about what the previous owner(s) did to the car.
5. The new C5 will have a warrenty.

Regards - Remo

A26B
01-17-03, 12:41 PM
There have been some outstanding and frankly unbiased opinions rendered here and I'm very proud of my bretheren for that. You all are a class act.

For my input: I wrestled with the same questions last June and ended up buying a 94 ZR-1. Why: I wanted something unique and exotic. You can't get that in a new C5. It's a kick talking to others who never heard of a ZR-1. I feel that way even more so now! Absolutely no regrets for my decision.

Comfort?? My wife is a real sport but was aprehensive about riding in a Vette, especially on road trips. She drives a Cadillac STS daily. We made the Eureka Springs, AR event from Oklahoma City and when we arrived she commented that she was definitely and plesantly surprised at how comfortable it was.

Decision is really, do you want to be unique and exotic or somewhat ordinary & common?

Good Luck in you choice. As it was once said "Choose wisely Grashopper!"

Remo
01-17-03, 01:30 PM
Jerry,

I agree that we were doing well about being unbiased - untill you ended your message with:
"do you want to be unique and exotic or somewhat ordinary and common".

Just an observation from an ordinary and common guy.

Regards - Remo

secondchance
01-17-03, 02:06 PM
Hi, Remo.
He said we provide unbiased info. Did'nt say that he was going to.:D :w

UvetteIrace
01-17-03, 02:10 PM
Wow!!! You mean there are people out there that dont know what a ZR1 is? ;shrug . . . I thought when a ZR1 pulls up on a traffic light, the cars next to it just are in deference, unless it's another Vette (in its own right, of course).

I live in NYC, and here just about every other car is either a BMW, a Benz, or a Porsche . . . regardless whether its a rich neighborhood or a not.

But if I decide on the ZR1 I certainly want these Un-american auto affecionados to bow down and recognize the ZR1 when I pull up next to them.

Thanks for your input Remo - to be honest I am starting to leaning towards the new C5.
:Steer :Steer

A26B
01-17-03, 02:48 PM
Looks like I inadvertently stepeed on a sensitive toe! Sorry about that. When I was referring to a C5 being ordinary and common compared to a ZR-1, what's to argue about. There are TWICE as many C5's made each model year as the total run of ZR-1's over 5 years. The LT5 engine is exponentially more durable than the pushrod engines. We are in a Corvette forum. Everyone is a Vette enthusiast.

Want to be noticed at stoplights?? Don't expect the Mercedes, BMW drivers to know you apart from a C4. Even so, C5's are probably even more common. To be noticed by the "unknowing", you'll either have to trick the exterior or show them the ass end as you pull away.

There are lots of folks out there who don't know about the ZR-1, even car enthusiasts. They were only made 5 yrs and the last was produced 8 model years ago. If you didn't follow Corvette's then, you were probably not aware or only aware in passing. My neighbor just bought a new, yellow vert and had never heard of a ZR-1.

Admittedly I am biased to the ZR-1, I made my choice and I drive one. To the C5 driver who took offense and thought I was calling him common and ordinary, I'm sorry you took it that way. You drive a great Corvette and I take nothing away from that. You drive a C5 and you are biased. I thhink that's the way it should be. Love what you drive! Ain't none of them bad!!

CKA_Racing
01-17-03, 02:50 PM
Seems like you would be better off in a C5. If you want it to handle better and have more power, there are plenty of upgrades out there. There are more shops out there that work on C5 and parts are plentiful and cheaper.
The C5 will be newer, therefore not that many things might go wrong with it.

The truth is there is nothing unique about a ZR1 when seen at a traffic light. To just about everyone it looks like a regular C4. So if you are trying to impress other people by the looks of the car, forget it. Might as well get a regualr C4. Since they will not know the difference.

I believe ZR1 are for people who really appreciate the history behind this vette and the performance it has even today.

Rob
01-17-03, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by CKA_Racing


The truth is there is nothing unique about a ZR1 when seen at a traffic light. To just about everyone it looks like a regular C4. So if you are trying to impress other people by the looks of the car, forget it. Might as well get a regualr C4. Since they will not know the difference.

Not unless you happen to be behind it at a stoplight. ;)

CKA_Racing
01-17-03, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by Rob
Not unless you happen to be behind it at a stoplight. ;)


People don't notice the baby got back width of the ZR1. Is that what you are referring too?
:_rock

Karl Snedeger
01-17-03, 03:00 PM
WOW! I have owned 5 vettes in the last 11 years- 3C4s and 3 C5s. I like the C5 over the C4 (except the ZR1). Just worry about the high maintainence bills with a ZR1. Parts are not cheap and some are very hard to find. Buy a 2000 Nassau Blue Hardtop and you have a unique Vette(189 made).

Rob
01-17-03, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by CKA_Racing
People don't notice the baby got back width of the ZR1. Is that what you are referring too?
:_rock

LOL :L Yep :D

A26B
01-17-03, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by Karl Snedeger
WOW! I have owned 5 vettes in the last 11 years- 3C4s and 3 C5s. I like the C5 over the C4 (except the ZR1). Just worry about the high maintainence bills with a ZR1. Parts are not cheap and some are very hard to find. Buy a 2000 Nassau Blue Hardtop and you have a unique Vette(189 made).


Maintenance can be high in the event of an engine related problem, no argument here. Counter-point is how incredibly durable this engine is and how little engine maintenance is ever required. The rest of the car is essentially a C4 and maintenance in accordance.

I'm sure the 2000 Nassau Blue is rare (189 made) but here again, how many would know that? Certainly none of the preppie Euro crowd, and probably not many Vette drivers unless they have a specific interest in that area. So, no stoplight recognition there either!!

I think the real bottom line here is which type of Corvette enthusiast are you and what do you want from one. We can debate this forever and never come to a unanimous decision for that reason. Different strokes for different folks.

CKA_Racing
01-17-03, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by Rob
LOL :L Yep :D

I agree, that's one fine back...:booty

But my wife and two other's that were riding with me never notice the wider back when compared to a regular C4.

But I educated them.. :Buttslap :gap

CKA_Racing
01-17-03, 03:25 PM
"Maintenance can be high in the event of an engine related problem, no argument here. Counter-point is how incredibly durable this engine is and how little engine maintenance is ever required."

Sure, just ask Phrogs. He found a motorless ZR1 and does not want to pay an arm and a leg for a ZR1 engine. Let's time it and see how long it takes for him to find one. Oh wait, this can't be happening because ZR1 engines are bullet proof. :s :J :D :L :z :Silly :drink :_rock :hb :duh ;LOL :v

secondchance
01-17-03, 03:54 PM
With all due respect, I don't believe unique color creates unique Vette.
As far as durability goes, I've put on 98,000 miles on 91 before her untimely demise and additional 40,000 on 94 I bought with 25,000 on odo. Apart from one burnt out starter caused by my attempt to wash the motor, back in 92, and pulling plenum twice for, yes you guessed it, vacuum leak on 94, I had no failure resulting in engine repair.
Ofcourse, periodic driverside rear bearing failure is something you learn to live with when you have 405 hp and 390 lb ft.:D
I know first hand that most people, Vette owners or otherwise, are ignorant of ZR-1s. Actually, this is why I prefer ZR-1 to Viper GTS, a car that scream for attention.
As far as the "motorless ZR-1 is concerned, you will always find some idiot who manages to destroy even the most durable of all due to neglect, stupidity or both. Bullet proof? Yes. Idiot proof? No.
ZR-1, for sure, is for those who appreciate the history and performance and, might I add, fine engineering.
After I wrecked 91 in 96, in order to pacify my wife who was petrified, I bought a 94 BMW 850csi. Now, this is a car everybody noticed. Even with a 5.6 liter V12, she was slow as hell! Sucked down more gas than a Nav. Talk about expensive repairs!
Anyway, UvetteIrace. I think C5 probably is a better choice for you at this stage. Also, living in NY, C5 would be easier to live with due to superior chassis rigidity and more compliant suspension.

Yo, Rob. Did we get some discussion going or what?

A26B
01-17-03, 04:12 PM
[QUOTE]Sure, just ask Phrogs. He found a motorless ZR1 and does not want to pay an arm and a leg for a ZR1 engine. Let's time it and see how long it takes for him to find one. Oh wait, this can't be happening because ZR1 engines are bullet proof. QUOTE]

You must be getting really desperate for any kind of a legitimate response to the LT5 durability issue. Phrogs is a true motorhead and ZR-1 driver. He already has a ZR-1 and a 69 427/435 and wants another ZR-1. He is on active dute in the Marine Corps and presently in the Middle East. He is in no hurry to find another LT5 engine so he's just shopping for the best possible deal so he can build one up for his wife. I fail to see how one ZR-1 without an engine for an unknown reason is any kind of legitimate criticism of LT5 durability.

Do you really think an LT1, LT4 or LS6 could do 400 hrs non stop on the dyno cycling between max torque and max hp every 5 minutes? The LT5 did!

secondchance
01-17-03, 04:28 PM
A26B. Take it easy on the guy. He is almost my neighbor. Its one of those older brother-yonger brother kinda thing. You know, LT4 was purposely under rated due to Chev anticipating LS1 and GS/LT4 is more collectible since total numbers produced is less than the ZR-1.
And since LT4 is almost as powerful to nip at the heels of ZR-1s and ZR-1s are hideously expensive to maintain and LT4 is more rare, only total idiots buy ZR-1.
I'm sure you read all these finer points.:(

secondchance
01-17-03, 04:32 PM
A26B.
We drive twins I see. I have 94 #256 blk/blk.:beer

A26B
01-17-03, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by secondchance
A26B. Take it easy on the guy. He is almost my neighbor. Its one of those older brother-yonger brother kinda thing. You know, LT4 was purposely under rated due to Chev anticipating LS1 and GS/LT4 is more collectible since total numbers produced is less than the ZR-1.
And since LT4 is almost as powerful to nip at the heels of ZR-1s and ZR-1s are hideously expensive to maintain and LT4 is more rare, only total idiots buy ZR-1.
I'm sure you read all these finer points.:(

I'm sorry, my emotions must have gotton the best of me:L Why, it's almost like traction, once you loose it, you just gotta back clear out of the throttle to get it back! Only another ZR-1 driver could possibly know what we're talking about! :bang :bang

secondchance
01-17-03, 04:44 PM
I don't much care what others think. I just hope there is an ample supply of low milage ZR-1s(thank you, those who buy them for investment and lose interest later) and price is kept down(thank you those who are scared to own due to fear o repair) so that I could continue to enjoy them without a fear of finding the next one.:L

Rob
01-17-03, 05:35 PM
Remember one thing here, they are all CORVETTES, regardless of what motor they have or how much you paid for it, or what type of Corvette someone chooses to own.

I love the ZR-1 and I'm proud to own one, but I'm not proud of it to the point that it overshadows my reasoning in the understanding that there are better Corvettes out there than the ZR-1.

DDSLT5
01-17-03, 05:40 PM
Its obvious to me that all those without an LT5 under the hood are uncontrollably jealous - thats cool, I appreciate the compliment, as do all us venerable ZR1 drivers!!!

:s :J :s :J :s :J :w :pat


We should all :BOW to the wonderful LT5!!!

secondchance
01-17-03, 05:43 PM
"I love the ZR-1 and I'm proud to own one, but I'm not proud of it to the point that it overshadows my reasoning in the understanding that there are better Corvettes out there than the ZR-1."

IMHO, there are more expensive ones (i.e. 69 ZL-1). There are better cars. Better Vette? Not yet. Not yet...

Ofcourse, this is only my opinion.

Rob
01-17-03, 05:47 PM
Originally posted by DDSLT5
Its obvious to me that all those without an LT5 under the hood are uncontrollably jealous - thats cool, I appreciate the compliment, as do all us venerable ZR1 drivers!!!

:s :J :s :J :s :J :w :pat

We should all :BOW to the wonderful LT5!!! :SLAP :SLAP Shame on you. LOL

phrogs
01-17-03, 05:49 PM
Originally posted by CKA_Racing


Sure, just ask Phrogs. He found a motorless ZR1 and does not want to pay an arm and a leg for a ZR1 engine. Let's time it and see how long it takes for him to find one. Oh wait, this can't be happening because ZR1 engines are bullet proof

Now I never told the whole story behind that car, It is a 91 without the motor and tranny or it soon will be because the owner wants to keep the motor and tranny, He has the 2 ZR-1s right now, When he bought the 91 the guy he bought it from also removed the motor and tranny so he could keep them as a spare for his other ZR-1 mainly because of the high cost of the motor He had built his other motor to a 415 I believe so he remove them and sold the shell to the guy I was talking to he found a motor and tranny from a 90 and installed them and has been driving that car ever since, now he wants to do the same and just sell the car less motor and tranny for 9K
that was a little to rich for a car only in my opinion, I have found many a LT5 for sale from 5K-12K most from salvaged cars so the motors are perfect and the majority of the motors on the high side are crates mostly 93's but I have seen a few 95 crates so its not a impossible venture Im just trying to do it as cheap as I can

I have no doubts that you can blow a LT5 that's not the point the point is in all the years I have been messing with these I have only seen a few motors that have had problems a blown head gasket and a bad lifter are about all that I have seen

and the one fellow who blew up his plenum with NOS that was interesting!!

I have just received pictures of another 91 from vetterestorer that was rolled seller wants 6500 for all of it motor and front frame rails left the car but a nice clean up and you are in there like swimwear!!!


I will build myself a bargain ZR-1 I just have to realize that I may not be back home for some time and I already have one project! :gap


Johnny

phrogs
01-17-03, 06:29 PM
And since I did own a Z06 for a little while until the wife begged me for a new truck.
here's my diagnosis
The C-5 is way more comfortable than the C-4 more room for your legs, it actually has a trunk!!
It is a fast ass car more than enough for the street or strip it comes with a waranty and its brand new thats one thing I did like about it!!

I really liked my Z06 I would have rather not gotten rid of it but I truly couldn't afford both vettes and a truck so one had to go, I kept my ZR-1 because of the rarity( there are 3 Z06's at my unit I was the only enlisted guy who had one though) and I love the ZR-1 I always have followed it and im not afraid of something breaking I know I can fix it and I can get another motor if I need one, will I get another Z06 someday??? maybe but I will definatly have another ZR-1 in the garage!



If I were you I would go with a C-5/Z06 for performance you wont be disappointed.


And for the record a lot of corvette owners cant identify a ZR-1 out on the street big ass third tail light dont matter because time and time again I have these guys in my town that always are wanting to race me in there l-98 cars??? :crazy

90 Corvette ZR-1
01-17-03, 06:37 PM
There is far to much drama in this thread so I'll stay away from the journalistic approach that I normally write in and go for the facts.

1) The LT5 looks better then the LS1.
2) The LS1 is cheaper to mod then the LT5
3) The C5 is not as fast as the ZR-1 (this includes the Z06 and yes I know this from real world testing)
4) The ZR-1 will get more looks from the Corvette people out there then the C5. (again real world testing)
5) The ZR-1 is more fun the the C5.
6) The C5 is more practial then the ZR-1.
7) The ZR-1 is more of a sports car then the C5.
8) The options that the ZR-1 came standard with are more then the C5 comes with.

Now we will get into opponions.

I would rather have a ZR-1 over a C5. I have driven both and the ZR-1 is more my kind of car. The thrill above 3000 rpms is unmatched. The way the car pulls up to the 7000 rpm red line is something that you get addicted to, the push back in the seat, the feeling in your stomach, the sound, to me the ZR-1 is the better car.

If your looking for a daily driver get the C5, if your looking for a luxury sports car, thats the car for you.

CKA_Racing
01-17-03, 07:10 PM
Originally posted by A26B
[QUOTE]Sure, just ask Phrogs. He found a motorless ZR1 and does not want to pay an arm and a leg for a ZR1 engine. Let's time it and see how long it takes for him to find one. Oh wait, this can't be happening because ZR1 engines are bullet proof. QUOTE]

You must be getting really desperate for any kind of a legitimate response to the LT5 durability issue. Phrogs is a true motorhead and ZR-1 driver. He already has a ZR-1 and a 69 427/435 and wants another ZR-1. He is on active dute in the Marine Corps and presently in the Middle East. He is in no hurry to find another LT5 engine so he's just shopping for the best possible deal so he can build one up for his wife. I fail to see how one ZR-1 without an engine for an unknown reason is any kind of legitimate criticism of LT5 durability.

Do you really think an LT1, LT4 or LS6 could do 400 hrs non stop on the dyno cycling between max torque and max hp every 5 minutes? The LT5 did!

Desperate?
Criticism of LT5 durability?

First off, why do you guys always bring in the LT4 into the conversation?
IMHO, there is no comparison. The ZR1 is the better engine, period.

Second, Iím well aware who Phrogs is. But thank you for the brief history lesson.
I have an issue when someone says the engines never have any type of mechanical failure. Any engine can blow up from a couple of reasons. Oil not being changed at required intervals, etc. You donít know how the previous owners treated the car before you purchased it. Thatís my point.
BTW Ė all the smiles at the end of my reply should have told you my ending comments were being said in a buddy buddy manner.

Seems like your comments are really aggressive towards me. Are they?
You know I stop visiting the corvette forum due to guys posting aggressive replies back to my replyís or post. Iím not going to put it with here.

secondchance
01-17-03, 07:28 PM
Hey, CKA_Racing.
No harm done. Like I said, Its like an argument between brothers. Sometimes it get too passionate but at the end of the day we all love our vettes.
Besides, we need you to fuel threads like this. So hang around:D :beer

Rob
01-17-03, 08:05 PM
At this point, I would ask that we bring this thread back on track.

The questions asked by the original poster should be answered WITHOUT pride and biases. Simply state the pros and cons of each model as you see them and leave out the emotional ties you have to your choice of Corvette.

As secondchance already stated, we're all brothers here regardless of what kind of Vette we choose to own and drive.

CKA_Racing
01-17-03, 08:15 PM
Originally posted by secondchance
Hey, CKA_Racing.
No harm done. Like I said, Its like an argument between brothers. Sometimes it get too passionate but at the end of the day we all love our vettes.
Besides, we need you to fuel threads like this. So hang around:D :beer

I enjoy seeing people being passionate about their cars. Itís the aggressiveness I refuse to put up with. The Internet is not the best media to try and make your point or argument. We canít type in our facial expressions or body language. So things donít always come out the way they are to be said. People should always keep this in mind. I would hate to see this place tun into that other forum. Not bashing that other forum, just more than enough of it's bad posters.

BTW Ė Nice vette you have there.

Rob
01-17-03, 08:17 PM
Originally posted by CKA_Racing
I would hate to see this place tun into that other forum. Not bashing that other forum, just more than enough of it's bad posters.


It won't as long as there is breath in my body....

CKA_Racing
01-17-03, 08:19 PM
oops, sorry rob. You type and entered your post as i was typing mine.

I agree. Like i said in my first post. The C5 seems to fit him better than the C4 ZR1. The c5 will be newer, thus less things to go wrong without. Each one has it's advantage and disadvantages.
:beer :w

secondchance
01-17-03, 08:21 PM
"BTW Ė Nice vette you have there."

If that was directed to me, thank you. I'm sure yours is very sharp too.
We don't live that far away from each other. May be we all get together at Clyde's at Reston TC. You in Rob? R. Kreigh if you are seeing this thread? Or anybody around N. Va?
Believe it or not I had to drive this morning and ASR does work!

I hope we did'nt scare off UvetteIrace. UvetteIrace, we are only kidding around.:L

CKA_Racing
01-17-03, 08:23 PM
Originally posted by Rob
It won't as long as there is breath in my body....

Amen!

;worship

BTW - Sure glad you don't look like your avatar. You'd never get hooked up. ;LOL

CKA_Racing
01-17-03, 08:28 PM
Originally posted by secondchance
"BTW Ė Nice vette you have there."

If that was directed to me, thank you. I'm sure yours is very sharp too.
We don't live that far away from each other. May be we all get together at Clyde's at Reston TC. You in Rob? R. Kreigh if you are seeing this thread? Or anybody around N. Va?
Believe it or not I had to drive this morning and ASR does work!

I hope we did'nt scare off UvetteIrace. UvetteIrace, we are only kidding around.:L

yes, it was.

We do get togethers around here. BlueWasp ( well he is gone to germany for a few years), *89x2*, R. Kreigh, 71Shark and a few others.

Rob
01-17-03, 08:48 PM
Originally posted by secondchance
"BTW Ė Nice vette you have there."

If that was directed to me, thank you. I'm sure yours is very sharp too.
We don't live that far away from each other. May be we all get together at Clyde's at Reston TC. You in Rob? R. Kreigh if you are seeing this thread? Or anybody around N. Va?
Believe it or not I had to drive this morning and ASR does work!

I hope we did'nt scare off UvetteIrace. UvetteIrace, we are only kidding around.:L

Count me in.

Rob
01-17-03, 08:49 PM
Originally posted by CKA_Racing
Amen!

;worship

BTW - Sure glad you don't look like your avatar. You'd never get hooked up. ;LOL

:L That's my early-morning, pre-coffee look. :D

secondchance
01-17-03, 09:03 PM
We gotta set up "donate money for Rob's hair transplant.com".
Anyone set it up. I'll be there.

secondchance
01-17-03, 11:24 PM
When I say set it up I mean for the get together!!!

rhanselman
01-18-03, 06:30 AM
Just one more consideration for a C5 over a ZR1:

Who wants all the attention when the hood is raised, or the bothersome crowds around all the time at shows? The sound is also too mean for most tame souls anyway. Best be conservative! :_rock

I put my ZR1 on BPPís dyno at BG just before they ran a Mallet ZO6 on the same. He pulled 100 more HP than I did. The most interesting thing to me was after the pulls. They parked the cars side by side with the hoods up. Guess what - All the attention was on the LT5.

Buy a C5 and get some piece and quiet. :z

On the serious side, if you haven't dreamt, drooled or lusted over a ZR1, you probably won't enjoy it as much as the majority of owners.

UvetteIrace - just for info info, the F16 is the Fighting Falcon and the F14 is the Tomcat. The F16 is better know to us F16 drivers as the Viper!

Cheers!

Edmond
01-21-03, 11:45 PM
Originally posted by DDSLT5
Its obvious to me that all those without an LT5 under the hood are uncontrollably jealous - thats cool, I appreciate the compliment, as do all us venerable ZR1 drivers!!!

:s :J :s :J :s :J :w :pat


We should all :BOW to the wonderful LT5!!!

For your information, I'm jealous, but a controlled jealous!:L :L :L

I keep my mouth shut when I see any ZR1 because I'd look funny if people saw me drool in public.:dance

Jeffvette
01-25-03, 03:20 AM
Originally posted by rhanselman
On the serious side, if you haven't dreamt, drooled or lusted over a ZR1, you probably won't enjoy it as much as the majority of owners.


I agree, ZR-1 has to be in your blood :bu