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Tom Bryant
12-01-02, 11:11 PM
GM is set to release 2 new crate engines. Both sporting 572 inches. The ZZ572/620 is 620 hp@5500 rpm and 650 lb-ft of torque@4500rpm. It has 9.6:1 compression ratio so will run on pump gas and has a 6000 rpm redline with it's hyd roller cam and Holley 4150 850cfm carb.

The ZZ572/720R is 720 hp@6250 rpm and 685 lb-ft of torque @4500 rpm. It is a 12:1 compression ratio which will obviously require race fuel and redlines at 6750 rpm with it's mechanical lifter roller cam and 4500 Dominator type 1096 cfm carb.

Both engines use the new tall deck Gen VI block with a deck height of 10.200 as compared to the 9.800 deck height of the standard block. The taller deck height is to clear the 4.375" stroke forged crank with long H beam rods and 4.560 bore forged pistons. Unlike the 502's oval port heads the 572 gets big rectangular ports with 118cc chambers and 2.25 intake/1.88 exhaust valves. They use stock ratio (1.7) roller rockers.

Their horsepower figures are actually fairly mild for the size of these monsters so there is a lot of room to build. Part numbers and prices have not yet been released.

See the January issue of Hot Rod Magazine for more details.

Tom

Ken
12-01-02, 11:19 PM
Finally gettin' around to reading it, eh Tom? :L

_ken :w

Tom Bryant
12-01-02, 11:24 PM
I just got it yesterday. The pony express horses get tred by the time they get this far out in the sticks. How many days sooner do you west coast guys get your Primedia publications?

Tom

Ken
12-01-02, 11:30 PM
I dunno, but tonight in the Solid Axle Lounge, Black Thunder said he had the February issue of Vette magazine already, and he's in Florida I believe. (Vette is published here on the west coast.) ;)

The reason it came up was due to the fact that he said Chris' Killer Shark was pictured on page 68. Be on the lookout for it! :upthumbs

_ken :w

Tom Bryant
12-02-02, 11:56 AM
I'll have to watch for that one.

Tom73
12-02-02, 02:27 PM
Nice looking engine:
http://www.sallee-chevrolet.com/Sneak/images/ZZ572smallside.jpg

Read all about it here on the Sallee Chevy site: http://www.sallee-chevrolet.com/Sneak/Previews.html

tom...

corvettecrazy
09-13-03, 03:06 PM
anyone know if a price has been relased on these beasts yet?

Tom Bryant
09-13-03, 04:49 PM
The last I read no part number has been released yet. So we waite.:eyerole

Tom

Bob_K
09-13-03, 06:10 PM
Hmmm, comes out to 9.3 Liters or so. Wonder if it can be bored or stroked to a 10L just to say it's been done =)

Stallion
09-18-03, 08:26 PM
Wow!! :eek I would definitely put this engine in a Shark. That is great. And like you said, definitely a lot to be able to work off of with that kind of engine.

How can GM put out such a powerful engine? Especially the 620 which only needs to run off of pump gas.

JohnZ
09-24-03, 06:55 PM
BIG cubes, low compression, and BIG price ($20K) :eek

Stallion
09-24-03, 07:19 PM
Why low compression?

Tom Bryant
09-24-03, 07:39 PM
Pump gas friendly.

corvettecrazy
09-24-03, 07:48 PM
Originally posted by Stallion
Why low compression?

pump gas friendly but that leaves plenty of room for adding forced injection (supercharger)

Tom Bryant
09-24-03, 07:53 PM
:upthumbs Exactly.

mcditalia
09-24-03, 08:29 PM
JEEEZ,

I thought I got the bug out of me when I saw these 2 crate motors advertised in a Jegs catalog a while ago and I was thinking of a second mortgage, anything to get a hold of one. Then, common sense (Read: no money) kicked in and went about my business, until you guys have to rehash the 572 fantasies!:D

I think I'll call my bank tomorrow and beg :eyerole

I need 620 HP under the hood of my third gen f-body in need of a rebuild. Anyone see the highly limited ZL1 all aluminum crate motor?

Stallion
09-24-03, 08:39 PM
How low is this low compression though? You can still throw in 12:1 easily with pump gas with no problem. And that's not a low CR. And if you want to supercharge, just do a couple of simple mods. Heads, pistons, gaskets...

Stallion

corvettecrazy
09-24-03, 09:25 PM
i dont think with that motor pistons heads and gaskets would need to be replaced if you were going to throw a big blower ontop of it

Stallion
09-24-03, 09:49 PM
Well, if they would have just started at a decent CR with that engine, anybody that would think of getting more power out with a blower would be able to do the mods. No big deal. But if you do want to keep the crate stock as it is, why not start with the higher CR. It's all on point of view...

Stallion

Last Ride
09-25-03, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by Stallion
Well, if they would have just started at a decent CR with that engine, anybody that would think of getting more power out with a blower would be able to do the mods. No big deal. But if you do want to keep the crate stock as it is, why not start with the higher CR. It's all on point of view...

Stallion

I might be wrong here, but I thought you couldn't run as high compression on a big block as you could, say, with a small block. Lingenfelter builds 11:1 compression LTx motors that are fine on pump gas, but most of the big block I have seen run between 9:1 and 10:1 and still use premium unleaded. Not sure why this is, just my observation.

corvettecrazy
09-25-03, 02:39 PM
interesting point...I wonder if that is true

Stallion : I agree anyone who is probably putting a blower on one of these knows what they are doing and not to mention that the motor comes in a crate so you dont have to remove it from a car to make the changes. much easier to do when the motor is new.

Stallion
09-25-03, 07:41 PM
Even 10:1 is still a decent CR and you couldn't put a blower on that unless you bring that down even farther.

MaineShark
09-25-03, 11:25 PM
Compression ratio is not the issue.

Cylinder pressure is.

With a cam that has a lot of duration, the compression ratio can be much higher, without the cylinder pressure getting high enough to cause problems (pre-ignition). With lower CR and shorter duration, the peak pressure might be greater than a high-CR, long-duration engine.

Joe

JohnZ
09-26-03, 05:54 PM
Exactly - that's why my 11:1 '69 Z/28 runs fine on pump premium (due to the high overlap of the OEM "30-30" cam) and other small-blocks at only 10:1 with less radical cams won't. The earlier intake and exhaust closing and reduced overlap of a less radical cam builds higher peak cylinder pressure, which increases the tendency toward detonation.
:beer

67HEAVEN
09-26-03, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by JohnZ
Exactly - that's why my 11:1 '69 Z/28 runs fine on pump premium (due to the high overlap of the OEM "30-30" cam) and other small-blocks at only 10:1 with less radical cams won't. The earlier intake and exhaust closing and reduced overlap of a less radical cam builds higher peak cylinder pressure, which increases the tendency toward detonation.
:beer

Hmmmmmm. Maybe I'll have to rethink my intention of tossing my ZL-1/LS-7 '180" cam after all. (in the middle of a rebuild of the complete car for those who don't know)

Although I fully recognize the insanity and "ridiculousness" of using this on the street, I'm willing to suffer the slings-and-arrows of horrible driveability and the requirement of playing with the throttle at every stop light if it can be made to work on today's gasoline. Seriously. Driveability is not an issue. I don't mind working!!! :D I yearn to ride-the-monster again, if only on the street. :D

Okay JohnZ.......your opinion please on the likelihood of popping a hole in a piston using this cam, approx. 11:1 compression, and well-ported open-chamber aluminum heads with today's pump premium.
SPECS HERE (http://www.webcocanada.com/forum/ZL-1%20cam.htm)

Stallion
09-28-03, 01:04 PM
I understand, thanks. :D

JohnZ
09-28-03, 03:45 PM
Dunno how that combination will react to pump premium - not that familiar with open-vs.-closed chamber BB's; all my experience is with SB's.
:beer

Stallion
09-29-03, 09:33 PM
John, kind of a personal question, but why do you prefer SBCs over BBCs? I would honestly like to get really delved into SBCs and get knowledgable about them, to the point where I will buy an independent SBC and just work on it and mod it outside my Vette (maybe put it in with time, but no use).

TR

JohnZ
09-30-03, 01:06 PM
Dunno, TR - I've just always owned SB's, spent a lot of my GM career working with them and building them at home for myself and later for others. The only BB's I ever owned were new cars - a '67 Chevy Impala SS with a 396/325hp, and a '69 Caprice hardtop I bought for my wife with a 427/390hp. Just a matter of personal preference, I guess - I prefer a light car with less weight on the front end and a high-winding small-block for the street. That was Zora's favorite formula when I worked for him in the Corvette Group in '67-'68, and I guess it stuck.

:beer

Stallion
09-30-03, 06:31 PM
I see what you mean, John. Lemme ask you one more question...

Is it practical for me to go out and get a project SBC? Something to work on and learn from? Don't forget, I'm 17 and on a somewhat tight budget. But I think it would gobs of run and definitely extreme learning, too.

What do you think?

Thanks, John!

TR

MaineShark
09-30-03, 07:23 PM
Big blocks are just excessive for street use. A small-block can produce all the cubes and power that are practical for a street car.

If you're building a 1000-hp monster, then a big-block might be useful, but that's not likely to be an extremely practical street car.

You can bore and stroke a small-block to 454 cubic inches, and produce well over 600 hp. If you need more than that, then the extra weight of a big-block might be worth it. If not, then save the weight and get a small-block.

Of course, that's sort of 'Vette-oriented. If you're interested in a car that isn't exactly the king of handling, or a truck of some sort, then the ease of getting power out of a big-block might be worth the weight penalty.

At least, that's my opinion...

Joe

67HEAVEN
09-30-03, 07:28 PM
Never blipped the throttle on a SHP or HD big block, Joe?????

:D

Horsepower sells cars........torque hauls.

MaineShark
09-30-03, 07:33 PM
Yeah, but you can bore and stroke a small-block to match the bore/stroke ratio of a 454 big block. You can even go to a longer stroke and smaller bore, get the same displacement and more torque :)

True, a really big BBC might have more torque, but how much torque can you have, before you can't drive without spinning the tires? How much torque can you really put into a 'Vette drivetrain, without blasting it to pieces?

Of course, if you have a truck, then it's a different story, because you can actually put that extra torque to use, and the weight of super-heavy-duty driveline components is not as large a fraction of the total weight of the vehicle.

Joe

67HEAVEN
09-30-03, 07:40 PM
Like I said, "Never blipped the throttle on a SHP or HD big block, Joe?????"

:D

If you think they're similar in experience to driving a truck, you might want to try one out.

I've raced small blocks and big blocks. I street-driven both. I'm not trading mine........just making it b-i-g-g-e-r. :D

JohnZ
10-01-03, 03:02 PM
Buying a junkyard SBC and setting it up on an engine stand would be a good start to a learning experience; you'd learn a lot tearing it down, and you could rebuild it as your time and budget permitted. Once you get past the machine shop work, you could do it at your leisure. Nothing like "hands-on" for good learning.
:beer

Stallion
10-01-03, 05:25 PM
John, I think I want to do this. How much would it cost for me to pick up a "junkyard" 350 SBC? This would be fun. :D

Thanks!

TR

MaineShark
10-01-03, 06:00 PM
Originally posted by 67HEAVEN
Like I said, "Never blipped the throttle on a SHP or HD big block, Joe?????"

Factory engines hold very little interest for me...


Originally posted by 67HEAVEN
If you think they're similar in experience to driving a truck, you might want to try one out.

I've raced small blocks and big blocks. I street-driven both. I'm not trading mine........just making it b-i-g-g-e-r. :D

I don't think that the high-performance big-blocks are similar to truck engines. I just think that there is no need to go with the larger block, when you can get similar power (and torque) from the smaller block, unless money is a limiting factory, or unless weight isn't (as in the case of a truck, which is already heavy).

You can extract more power and torque from a small-block than you could ever use on the street. You could extract enough to shred the drivetrain of a 'Vette. So why would you need more than you could use? I'd rather have better handling :)

Joe

MaineShark
10-01-03, 06:04 PM
Originally posted by Stallion
John, I think I want to do this. How much would it cost for me to pick up a "junkyard" 350 SBC? This would be fun. :D

Thanks!

TR

A couple hundred bucks.

Do you have some sort of magazine devoted to classified ads? Up here, we have "The Want Ads" and "Uncle Henry's", both of which are basically a weekly magazine printed on newsprint, filled with classified ads.

In the auto parts section, or sometimes in the racing accessories section (or sometimes mis-filed in other sections), there are always plenty of SBC's. A decent, running, 4-bolt engine should be easy to find for two or three portraits of Ben Franklin. Heck, there have been engines out of F-bodies, complete with the whole TPI system and wiring, for $400 or so.

Joe

Stallion
10-01-03, 08:48 PM
It doesn't have to be in any pretty shape. This will be a project engine to work on and learn from. And then get some pretty nice numbers out of, too. ;)

Hmm...I don't really know of any add mags or anything. :(

TR

MaineShark
10-02-03, 01:33 PM
You've gotta have something similar to that, down there. Try some gas stations, and convenience stores. That's where you usually find them.

Also, don't just get the cheapest core you can find, since you don't want to start a build-up with some engine that has been totally trashed, and may be cracked or require such extensive machining that the end cost becomes higher. 350's are cheap enough that you can spend an extra couple bucks and get one that is in reasonable shape.

I know a guy in central Mass who has one for sale, but that might be a little far, and it will definitely require the cylinders to be honed, because they are already bored .060-over, and it has a little rust on the walls of the rear two.

You should be able to find better, easily. You might also check with some local junkyards and see what they have. You're basically looking for an easily-rebuildable "core" with four-bolt mains. (unless you plan on getting fancy with your rebuild, and want to machine it for splayed mains, in which case you want a two-bolt core)

Joe

Stallion
10-02-03, 04:46 PM
Okay, I'll definitely have to take a look around and see if I can't find anything.

Thanks!

grumpyvette
10-10-03, 08:56 AM
Stallion
do you have a manual transmission ?
and what is your rear gear in your Corvette?
I build engines all the time, and I can give you a list of parts to build a combination will work correctly, but you will need to match, the intake and carb, rear gearing, transmission stall speed if your running an automatic,(3000rpm in this case) and the correct header size to that engine to get it to run correctly. With today's better cylinder heads, and cams, it's fairly easy to build a high horsepower engine, provided, you take the time to do your homework and match the parts to the intended use, airflow, and the cars usable rpm range due to its gearing.
The two biggest mistakes I see made constantly, is not matching all the parts to the rpm range in which the engine will be used, and changing the combo midstream due to the super deal that you just got on some part, I'd say 80% and 90% of the engines I see have mis-matched parts, and when you really get down to
ask them, they got us super deal somewhere on the cylinder heads, intake, cam and kit, or some other major part that does not match the rest of their, combo or the cars gearing.
For example
here's a combo that works
but you should have 4.11-4.56 rear gear's
your Corvette must have a manual transmission(or 3000rpm stall converter)
11:1 .compression 383 short block
iron eagles to 215 C. C. heads (pocket ported with a three angle valve job)
a crane #114681 solid lifter cam shaft
and EDELBROCK rpm airgap intake
a 750 CFM vacuum secondary carburetor
full-length 1 3/4-inch headers with a three-inch exhaust and low restriction mufflers
a 7 QT baffled oil pan with a MILODON windidge screen
a 250 hp nitrous plate system under the carb
I put this combo into late sixties and early seventies Corvette's and Camaros all the time, if you have the correct manual transmission and rear gear you're looking for a fun car that will run deep in the 12 second range,(without the nitrous) with the correct suspension and slicks, and will still work well with the nitrous which by the way works exceptionally well with this, combo But it would be an absolute disaster to stick that engine in a Corvette with the late model TPI intake, and 2.57 rear gear's. And NO it won't pass emissions testing, and yes it makes well over 400 horsepower and if your any good at parts shopping it makes for a relatively inexpensive, engine combo

Stallion
10-10-03, 10:39 PM
I have a manual transmission and a 3.36 in the rear. But I could easily change the rear to something in the 4.11 range. That wouldn't be a big deal. And would my 750 CFM QJet be enough carb for that? I don't have headers, but with an engine like that, I would obviously use them.

I see what you mean though. Thanks for the information! I would really like to get seriously into engine building. It is a great thing. :)

Thanks again! :D

TR