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    Member berry1133@bellsouth.net's Avatar
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    Default No Crank, No Start

    On occasion after driving my ruby around town for a while on a hot Atlanta day, it will not restart. I have to let it sit for an hour or so and its starts back with no problem. I replace the starter as well as bought a new key with the chip. Neither of these has corrected the no start situation. Any ideas on what to do? Is it the VATS that's acting up?

    Thanks.


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    Quote Originally Posted by berry1133@bellsouth.net View Post
    On occasion after driving my ruby around town for a while on a hot Atlanta day, it will not restart. I have to let it sit for an hour or so and its starts back with no problem. I replace the starter as well as bought a new key with the chip. Neither of these has corrected the no start situation. Any ideas on what to do? Is it the VATS that's acting up?

    Thanks.


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    You need to look at the Security light in the dash.
    When you insert the key and turn the ignition On the CCM reads the resistance of the key pellet. If successful
    the Security light will go out and the starter will engage.

    If it fails to read the proper resistance the Security light will be on Solid. The starter circuit will
    be disabled for a random period of time no longer than around 5 minutes.

    Turn the ignition Off and wait at least 5 minutes before trying again. If you try to start the car before the time out ends another random time out period begins.

    You've already eliminated the key so the most likely cause if the Security light stays on is the
    ignition key cylinder is bad. The wires eventually break because every time the key cylinder is rotated
    the wires twist.


    Here's a video explaining the procedure to replace the ignition key cylinder.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oia0keiC0kU

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    Member berry1133@bellsouth.net's Avatar
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    Thanks so much. I'll re-create the no crank, no start scenario. I guess my question would then be why does it only fail to crank/start after the vehicle has been driven for a long period of time? If the wires were damaged, I would assume that it would behave in this manner all the time. I never have any issues when cold starting or, if I've driven the vehicle for a short period of time.

    Thanks so much for your valuable input.


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    Quote Originally Posted by berry1133@bellsouth.net View Post
    On occasion after driving my ruby around town for a while on a hot Atlanta day, it will not restart. I have to let it sit for an hour or so and its starts back with no problem. I replace the starter as well as bought a new key with the chip. Neither of these has corrected the no start situation. Any ideas on what to do? Is it the VATS that's acting up?

    Thanks.


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    When you say the car won't restart on a hot day, when the problem occurs does the starter engage?
    Does the engine crank over but the engine will not run?

    If the starter engages it's not a VATS problem. VATS disables the starter and pulsing of the fuel injectors.
    That's why you need to look at the Security light when the problem occurs.

    If you have a manual transmission if it's not a VAT's problem but a problem in the starter circuit such as the clutch safety switch you can still push start the car.
    Last edited by ecss; 05-26-15 at 06:49 PM.

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    When the scenario occurs, it's after I have been driving it for a while. In fact, I can recreate by letting it run in my driveway for 45 min to an hour and the temp gets above 230. I guess being hot outside has nothing to do with the malfunction, it's the vehicle temp. The starter does not engage. It's an automatic. I'll have to pay attention to the security light the next time. It'll probably be next week before I get a chance to further troubleshoot.


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    Connect pin A to pin G and turn the ignition On. Look at the Speedometer LCD.

    Any Trouble codes will be displayed. (Maybe an old VATS code will still be in memory).
    Module 1 is the CCM
    Module 4 is the ECM
    Module 9 is the ASR/ABS
    C12 is not an error




    Here's the starter schematic. When the key pellet is read properly and the ignition is turned On.
    The CCM grounds the starter enable relay. Even if the starter doesn't engage you should hear
    a faint click coming from under the driver side dash when the key is turned to start and the relay
    energizing. No faint click would most likely indicate the CCM has a problem. Gordon Killerbrew a person who worked on the Corvette assembly line mentioned some of the CCM's had a problem grounding the starter relay. He never mentioned it being heat related but recommended to manually ground the relay with a piece of wire.

    Last edited by ecss; 05-27-15 at 07:57 AM.

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    Member berry1133@bellsouth.net's Avatar
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    So, connecting A to G will give codes in the speedometer? I've connected A to B to check codes using the flash method. Using this method, I haven't gotten any codes. How would I ground the starter relay?


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    Quote Originally Posted by berry1133@bellsouth.net View Post
    So, connecting A to G will give codes in the speedometer? I've connected A to B to check codes using the flash method. Using this method, I haven't gotten any codes. How would I ground the starter relay?


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    Connecting A to B will only give ECM codes that flash the Service Engine Soon indicator.
    A to G will give you codes for the ECM, CCM and ABS.

    You need to remove the carpeted panel for the driver side foot well.
    Then remove the metal plate.
    Lay on your back and look up and back towards the front of the dash.
    You will see the relays in the diagram below.

    One relay socket should have the following wires.
    Large Yellow.
    Large Purple (this is the wire that goes to the starter solenoid).
    Small gage Yellow wire.
    Small gage Yellow/Black wire.
    You ground the small gage Yellow/Black wire.
    This will manually enable the starter enable relay.
    There still is a possibility the relay is intermittent so you can swap it with one of the other ones
    as long as they are the same.

    Last edited by ecss; 05-26-15 at 08:27 PM.

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    Ok. Thanks so so much. You have been quite helpful. I will keep you posted. Thanks again.


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    Ok. I just ran into my no crank, no start condition. I swapped out the starter enable relay with a new one and still no crank, no start. New key, still no start, no Crank. Grounded the black:yellow wire, still no start no crank. I can hear/feel the relay click when I attempt to start. Security light stays on solid when key is in the start position. Could it be the CCM?
    Thanks


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    Quote Originally Posted by berry1133@bellsouth.net View Post
    Ok. I just ran into my no crank, no start condition. I swapped out the starter enable relay with a new one and still no crank, no start. New key, still no start, no Crank. Grounded the black:yellow wire, still no start no crank. I can hear/feel the relay click when I attempt to start. Security light stays on solid when key is in the start position. Could it be the CCM?
    Thanks
    When you insert the key and turn it to On (not start) the Security light should be out if the key
    pellet was read properly.

    If the Security light stays On the starter enable relay is disabled by the CCM for around 5 minutes.
    You must wait for the 5 minutes to time out because the CCM will not ground the Yellow/Black wire.
    If you try to start the car before the time out ends, a new time out period begins.



    If you want to force the starter to engage. (Ignore the Security Light Problem for now).


    Remove the starter enable relay from the socket.
    With a piece of wire at least 10 gauge or a paper clip, at the relay socket connect the 10 gauge purple wire
    to the 10 gauge Yellow wire. This bypasses the relay.

    Turn the ignition key to Start.
    The starter should engage.
    If the starter doesn't engage, measure the voltage on the Purple wire while you hold the key in the Start
    position. You should measure 12 volts.
    If you have 12 volts either the starter is bad, the terminal lug at the starter needs to be cleaned
    or the ground from the engine block to the negative battery terminal is bad.

    Plus you most likely have a problem with the ignition key cylinder because the Security light is staying on.

    Last edited by ecss; 06-21-15 at 02:20 PM.

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    Ok. I did notice that the security light went out after I waited for a while. But still, no start. Thanks for the direction on bypassing the relay. Do you think my problem is the CCM?


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    Just went back out after about 30+ minutes and still no start no crank. Pulled the relay, jumped the purple and yellow wire and she fired right up. I guess I could just leave the jumper in all the time and not have to worry about it. But, I would like to know what the problem is.


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    Quote Originally Posted by berry1133@bellsouth.net View Post
    Just went back out after about 30+ minutes and still no start no crank. Pulled the relay, jumped the purple and yellow wire and she fired right up. I guess I could just leave the jumper in all the time and not have to worry about it. But, I would like to know what the problem is.


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    Making progress.

    You don't want to jump the 10 Gauge Purple to the 10 Gauge Yellow wire because that
    bypasses the Park Neutral Safety switch for a auto trans. or the Clutch Safety switch for a manual trans.

    Remove the jumper.
    Put the relay back in the socket.
    Ground the Yellow/Black wire.
    The relay should energize when you turn the ignition switch to start and the starter should engage.

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    Ok. Took the jumper off. Ran gator clip from the yellow:black wire to the negative terminal on battery. Back to square one. No crank no start.


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