Titanium

[Edmond]

Okay, so the Z06 exhaust is made of titanium. Of course, we all know that titanium is lighter and stronger than stainless steel (also cost more).

So would it be conceivable to see future Vette's use more titanium than in just the exhaust?

What about a strong, lightweight body frame made of titanium? They could probably cut the car back down to 2,900 pounds, like it used to be back in the day!

Imagine putting a 427 in a 2,900 pound Corvette!

[Ken]

"Daddy, what is a lightweight Corvette?"

"Shaddup and keep sanding!"

:Silly

[danl72]

Originally posted by BullWinkle
Okay, so the Z06 exhaust is made of titanium. Of course, we all know that titanium is lighter and stronger than stainless steel (also cost more).

So would it be conceivable to see future Vette's use more titanium than in just the exhaust?

What about a strong, lightweight body frame made of titanium? They could probably cut the car back down to 2,900 pounds, like it used to be back in the day!

Imagine putting a 427 in a 2,900 pound Corvette!

Can you say 0-60 in 3.0 seconds. 427 with 500 hp. Wow, what a ride.

[Scissors]

Well, actually, pure titanium is actually weaker than steel. Titanium alloys are what you want. Of course, some forms of steel, such as maraging and 15-5, are stronger than the more common titanium alloys. Pure titanium (Ti) is brittle and weak with a strength of only 150 MPa and a Brinell hardness of just 100 (give or take). For comparison, W1 steel has a strength of 1000-1500 MPa when hardened.

Assuming you mean titanium alloys, however, you run into the problem of hardness (or lack thereof.) Obviously, in order to have a stiff chassis, you need a hard material. Rope, while very strong along its length, is also very soft and would (obviously) make for a crappy frame. The vast majority of Titanium alloys cannot be hardened beyond the mid 40's on the Rockwell hardness C scale. I unfortunately don't know what hardness the steel in the current 'Vette's chassis is, so I don't know if that's enough to at least keep the stiffness at the same level as it is now, but steel can easily exceed Titanium in hardness and is much much cheaper.

[rjsmith]

Originally posted by Scissors
Well, actually, pure titanium is actually weaker than steel. Titanium alloys are what you want. Of course, some forms of steel, such as maraging and 15-5, are stronger than the more common titanium alloys. Pure titanium (Ti) is brittle and weak with a strength of only 150 MPa and a Brinell hardness of just 100 (give or take). For comparison, W1 steel has a strength of 1000-1500 MPa when hardened.

Assuming you mean titanium alloys, however, you run into the problem of hardness (or lack thereof.) Obviously, in order to have a stiff chassis, you need a hard material. Rope, while very strong along its length, is also very soft and would (obviously) make for a crappy frame. The vast majority of Titanium alloys cannot be hardened beyond the mid 40's on the Rockwell hardness C scale. I unfortunately don't know what hardness the steel in the current 'Vette's chassis is, so I don't know if that's enough to at least keep the stiffness at the same level as it is now, but steel can easily exceed Titanium in hardness and is much much cheaper.

I remember you now! You sat behind me in Calculus 180. You were the one who did third order differential equations in your head. :D

Do you remember me? I was the one who said to the professor "Just a damn minute, yesterday you said X equals two!"

Save the wave.

[Scissors]

Originally posted by rjsmith


I remember you now! You sat behind me in Calculus 180. You were the one who did third order differential equations in your head. :D

Do you remember me? I was the one who said to the professor "Just a damn minute, yesterday you said X equals two!"

Save the wave.

Actually, no. I was the guy to the left of you--sleeping.

[BigRed]

One thing you got to love about Titanium and any other exotic alloy is, ITS A PAIN TO WELD OR FABRICATE.

I mean I regret the day someone cracks a exhaust manifold on a Z06, dont get me wrong I think the Titanium Exhaust is cool but GM's probably more thinking about replacing instead of repairing when it come to warranty work.

I was talking to a buddy of mine who welded for a nuclear power plant and he said you've got to be REAL good to weld the stuff because under fusion heat its cracks when cooled unless brought down to room temp by applying heat to it and slowing turning down heat AKA with a torch. If you go to fast cut it out and reweld

Just what from Ive heard.......Eh.

[vettepilot]

Hi BigRed,
Actually the LS6 exhaust manifolds are made of thin wall cast iron, the Ti portion is actually from just forward of the transaxle rearward to include those great sounding mufflers. :)
In fact I think the 2001 and 02 LS1 exhaust manifolds are now the same thin wall cast iron design, not certain about that though.
That takes us to the repositioning of the engine oil dipstick to clear the new manifolds, but that's a whole nuther thread! And we don't even want to go there.
vettepilot

[Edmond]

Doesn't someone offer a titanium exhaust for the C5 that claims to weigh a few less pounds than the Z06 exhaust?

The Z06 exhaust is noticeably "meaner" than the stock C5 tone. I wonder if anyone has actually dumped those titanium mufflers for after market mufflers. Those mufflers must be pretty expensive!:crazy

[Rob]

You may be interested in this article: http://corvetteactioncenter.com/specs/z06/z06exhaust.html

[vettepilot]

In reference to BullWinkle's question on wondering if anybody has replaced the stock Ti system with an aftermarket... the answer is yes, over in the ZO6 site you can read about many who have gone aftermarket. Why they did so I haven't figured out yet, because the ZO6 factory stock system is so efficient that a more open system only gains about 3-4 Hp at the rear wheels. Cosidering the cost of a new system, 950 - 1500 $$$$ depending on brand and place of purchase, that's way too much $$$ / HP gain for me. Now if the car is used on the track, then maybe it is worth that to somebody. just my .02 worth.
vettepilot

[Bullitt]

There's an excellant article on titanium and it's uses in a magazine called Racecar Engineering, that's out this month. Though dealing with Formula 1, the insight could be applied to other aspects of car manufacturing. The initative to buy the proper tooling and machinery for titanium, factored in with cost issues make for a solid argument against regular production titanium parts. Though one Titanium producer says that they are willing to supply OEM parts, it's questionable that GM would consider spending considerable amounts and later, deal with warranty claims on Titanium metals that do not fall under the title of "wear items."

--Bullitt

[Edmond]

vettepilot,

I hope that I'm speaking of the unthinkable, but what if say the mufflers were somehow hit and dented? Wouldn't it cost half a fortune to either replace or repair them?

Maybe we should all look into some of that titanium stock. It's been so successful that I wouldn't be surprised if other companies started using it.

[vettepilot]

BullWinkle,
Yes I thought of the damage factor also, especially when it's MY car..lol. I haven't priced the Ti exhaust system components yet, no need to "yet, (keeping fingers crossed here), I would think it would be standard Corvette fare, drop a $500.00 to order the parts, and empty the checking account when they come in. But basically I wouldn't think they would be much more than a stainless steel system, and if damaged, maybe the auto insurance would help defray the total cost. That's the route I would go first, of course others may not want a claim hanging over their heads.

[Edmond]

vettepilot,

No bad wishes toward ya! You have an awesome car and I hope you enjoy each and every second that you drive it. I sure would!

Guy I spoke to who has a 2001 said that the tires came with very little tread on them. Is that true? He also said that GM gave you guys a video on how to modify the car!

[Colorado]

Originally posted by BullWinkle
Guy I spoke to who has a 2001 said that the tires came with very little tread on them. Is that true? He also said that
GM gave you guys a video on how to modify the car!

Say WHAT???? This guy should look for someone in the new car prep area of his dealership who has new tires on his car. The hour-long video that comes with the 2001 Corvette presents some normal maintenance routines and some other tips and tricks, but modifications? HAHAHAHAHA :L

I was thinking of going from the standard differential ratio of 2.73 to the factory optional 3.15 performance ratio. My friendly service manager said "Oh Yeah, sure, do that if you want to void the warranty." Oh yeah, GM is providing videos on how to modify your Corvette.

Some people's kids... :bang

- Colorado

[vettepilot]

ref. the tires, the F1 Supercar tires have 8/32nds of an inch of tread compared to 11/32nds for the regular F1 Goodyears. This does two things that I know of, reduces weight and reduces tread squirm. Most tires made exclusively for racing are usually shaved to reduce the tread squirm, and ensure roundness uniformity.
Myself I don't have a problem with the lower tread depth, however, I assume that I will be replacing these tires about 5000 miles sooner than comparable tires with full tread depth. Since I'm not racing it.... and I usually get above average tire life, I suspect that I should get many more miles from my tires than the average ZO6 owner. By comparison, I was averaging 45,000 miles per set of Goodyear GSCs on my 93 ZO7 Vette. The Goodyear dealers that mounted my tires for me said I was getting over double what the average Corvette owner was getting.
I have already priced new F1 SC tires, and I couldn't believe the low price, looks like it will actually be less than the four GSCs that I was accustomed to buying every 2 1/2 years for my 93.
I naturally purchase MY tires from a well known tire market on line and have them delivered to my door. Saves a bundle.
Oh and about the video, the 2002 ZO6 video does have a short section on adjusting the suspension for track use, and lowering the suspension with the factory bolts. It also talks about adding an extra quart of oil to the engine, (also referenced in the owners manual) for track use because of the cornering capabilities of the ZO6. There's also a short clip on the available parts from GM that will help set up the suspension for the track. Other than that, it mainly talks about the development of the ZO6, and the normal /routine maintenance, and also the how things work section for everyday driving. I was rather disappointed in this tape compared to my 1993 video. The first 10 - 15 minutes of track footage is the best part, kinda makes one want to head out the door to a track.
vettepilot

[Rob]

Just a little quick fact that's indirectly related. Someone mentioned they didn't understand why Z06 owners change their exhaust system as the stock system is already very good. Believe it or not, if you look at the design of a stock Z06 exhaust manifold, it's actually a header. GM spent approximately $2,000,000 in research and development costs for the Z06 exhaust system alone. The only beneficial aftermarket header for the Z06 is a straight-through pipe.

[vettepilot]

Rob,
I didn't think about that but after looking at mine your right!
In fact they look very much like the LT5 manifolds that were in the ZR-1. I remember they were supposed to be very efficient at the time, and looking inside one, they had very nice curves and transitions from the outlet on the heads through the manifold and into the exhaust pipe. So I guess the LS6 manifold is designed on that idea.
I know that the proof of the design is sitting right under my right foot. VB :)

[Colorado]

vettepilot - A 3/32 difference in tread depth between OEM and aftermarket tires doesn't mean the OEM tire came with "very little" tread. And the adjustments described don't equal modifications.

[dugr]

vettepilot, or anyone,

Any chance of getting a copy of that tape from GM? I purchased my '94 used. I feel real fortunate to have received the original Owner's Manual with it. I did not know about these tapes. I would love to look at one.

dugr

[Colorado]

dugr - Here's a link to the real thing: http://www.helminc.com/helm/Result.asp?Style=&Mfg=GMC&Make=CHV&Model=CVET&Year=1994&Category=2&Keyword=&mscsid=VCG2VMH7DL2V9LREN84H453GBDJKAMA6

[dugr]

Thanks, Colorado,

BTW, nice picture!

dugr

[Colorado]

You are most welcome. And thank you :)!

- Colorado

One of these days I'll scan a real picture for that avatar ... maybe ;)

:w

[vettepilot]

Hi Colorado,
I didn't mean that the tires had very little tread, but was trying to get the point across that they actually had more tread depth than the guy was telling BullWinkle, but less than the standard Vette tires for the respective year.
I agree with you that the guy who said "they have very little tread" is full of it.
The F1 Supercar tires are the OEM tires for the ZO6, and they do have 3/32nds less tread depth.
Your right about the adjustments not being "mods" the way most people would think of "mods", but the fact that they actually talk about setting the car up for the track is a departure from the normal "car for the masses" thinking.

[Edmond]

He specifically said something about lowering the car. We all have different definitions of what a mod is but I consider lowering a mod so no confusion intended on my part.

Hell, I wouldn't be surprised that the car came with very little tread because the sales boys were probably out having a good time with the Z06.

[vettepilot]

I would consider lowering a modification also. I think most people think of Mods as a bolt on component, internal changes to the engine, drivetrain, or chassis component changes.
I guess technically, anything that departs from the pure factory stock specification(s), (not to include normal maintenance items) could be called a modification.

Re. the sales people driving the ZO6 cars in stock, see below...

:L

:L

:L

:L

[Colorado]

:L :L :L is right ... I can see the GMs rounding up all those sales boys for a little chat right now ... "Okay, boys, we have another report from the CAC that you guys are abusing the products. One more time, and you're all banned to selling Geo Metros - the previously driven ones :mad".


- Colorado

[Edmond]

Originally posted by Colorado
:L :L :L is right ... I can see the GMs rounding up all those sales boys for a little chat right now ... "Okay, boys, we have another report from the CAC that you guys are abusing the products. One more time, and you're all banned to selling Geo Metros - the previously driven ones :mad".



- Colorado

Worse yet, they won't even let the sales boys drive the Metro's. I think God drives a Metro, not a Corvette.

[Colorado]

hoooo-boy...and all this time I thought He drove a Volkswagen bus.

[Bullitt]

These are a few quotes from an article titled Metal Guru by Charles Clarke, in the above mentioned magazine. He talks with John Bannard of B3 Technologies.

B3 Technologies, led by legendary F1 designer and materials pioneer John Bannard, is one of the few independant contractors confident and capable of working with titanium at high levels of complexity and in demanding application enviroments. This capability is hard won, and when most in Formula 1 were having second thoughts about the use of titanium, after some initial catastrophic failures, Bannard preservered and mastered the technigues required to work effectively with it, at low factors of safety.

B3 Technologies has evolved from Ferrari Design and Developement (FDD), Ferrari's Formula 1 design and R&D facility set up by Bannard in Guilford in the UK in 1992. There is a perception that Formula 1 is a "money no object" activity, but this is not always true. What is the case is "no compromise on quality" and this ethic remains at B3 Technologies today, as strongly as it did at FDD. John Bannard is the engineer who introduced the Formula 1 world to the carbon fibre monocoque chassis, semi-automatic gearboxes, fabricated titanium and carbon fibre gearboxes, as well as many other less recognised design features that people in Formula 1 circles simply take for granted.

...Titanium is very useful in lots of areas, but there are situations where is it inappriopiate. "It's affectively half as stiff as steel and it's a little under half the weight. Sometimes that works for you, sometimes it doesn't. If you're making torsion bars, it's unlikely that you'll make them lighter in titanium. In 1993/94 we started making uprights from titanium. This was after we had done some extensive work to perfect the welding. We had built purge tanks to exclude oxygen from the welding operation. By that time we could achieve completely non-contaminated welds."

"One of the major problems with titanium is that it is quite difficult to get any depth of hardness on the surface to allow for wear. The hard skin is inherently stiff and the titanium substarte is relatively flexible. It can be a problem unless it's relatively lowly stressed. With steel components you can case harden them, but titanium is much more difficult. However, they are more and more surface treatments coming , which provide hard skins. The problem is that these hard skins are not very thicjk- microns rather than millimetres. When someone comes along with the treatment that will produce a relatively thick hardened surface with a nice gradual transition in hardness to the metal substrate, then I will think the uses of titanium will open up even more. Generally you won't get away with it in titanium alone. You have to use a hardened steel sleeve or insert for a bearing."

"As far as price of titanium is concerned, it varies between four and six times the price of steel and depends on what you're buying. Smaller sizes are more expensive, relativley speaking. There is a skin on the surface which has to be removed after the smelting and the forging. As you get down to smaller bar stcock, the percentage that has to be removed is porportionately higher. It is so expensive mainly because it uses vast amounts of electricity in it's production."

"For the titanium upright we make, you have to start with a fairly massive billet for the centre. This is machined and wire-eroded to produce the finned bearing carrier, and the rest is welded to it. The material cost for the upright could come to about L700, but because of the amount of work involved, the final cost is something like L7000-L8000 each."

Most of the F1 teams have fairly substantial machine shops nowadays, but here is still a lot of work getting out-sourced. "Companies like us take the overflow, or the wortk that they can't handle from a capacity point of view or work that they can't do from a technical point of view," Bannard said. "In some cases we do things that the big teams don't want to because it might be very tricky or time consuming."

"We've got a lot of experience at doing these things- it takes time to gain experience. It's easier to do something that's been done before- it takes a lot more effort to be a pioneer."

"And we have the expertise to work in all knids of materials, particularly in carbon and titanium. Because of this wealth of expertise, we can look at a project and evaluate the best way of making it without being restricted to a narrow or limited set of possible solutions. Design is not just about making a fancy componenet, it's about making optimum choices, taking into account cost, time and manufacturability."

The article covers other parts of titanium manufacturing and it's uses, so pick it up if you are interested in learning more.

--Bullitt

[DkBG]

Will those Zo6 takeoffs fit regular c-5s ?

[Edmond]

Saw on the news yesterday about a man who has an artificial heart and one of it's components is titanium!:beer