OMG I Talked to a GM Engine Engineer about C6 OMG!!!

[Black Ice]

He said look for 450 HP OUT OF THE BOX!!! non Z06TYPE and he said it WILL now be a 2004 again Weeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!

[danl72]

That would be great. We'll just have to wait and see.

[Edmond]

Are they going to keep the 350?

[Black Ice]

Larger displacement

[Ling_650vette]

One rumor i've heard was that the C6 may recieve a DOHC 5.7L type motor. Still will have 346 CI like the LS1, but will have 450hp. Also, i heard another rumor of there being a possible SB 7.0 type motor being developed for the C6. How knows, thats the good/bad thing about rumors, gets you all built up, then they dont build the focker *cough* Silverado SS *cough*

[lytemup]

all these rumors are just kinda funny to me ;)

Black Ice: where in northern Ill do you talk to all these execs and engineers? :confused ;) :)

[Duntov7]

My, my....I sure hope that the 2004 launch and 450 HP are accurate. I've had a C6 'ordered' for some time.

[motorman]

it will be a 395 ci version of this type of engine, www.gminsidenews.com/xv82.htm

[StillDreaming]

Can't wait to see pics........... and I hope that 450HP is true.... hope it looks good too............ keep the information coming...........

[Stan A]

We are all hearing many different stories about what is in store with regards to the C6. It is important that we all look at the outside things that will effect this car.

First, EPA and CAFE requirements for that that year model may push GM to move in the direction of smaller engine sizes and less horsepower. Suggest that everyone read the thread I posted in the OFF ROAD LOUNGE- other cars entitled "Horsepower Wars- Is 500hp a enough" by Rob. This will give everyone a better view of what is about to take place with what I have mentioned here.

Being a past board member of the Georgia EPA "clean air" group has given me a better understanding of what we all may face in the coming years. Government intervention is going to be massive. More controls on car and truck manufacturing is coming our way.

As to the claim of more horsepower in the C6, I honestly believe that we will see less than we currently have on tap now. Also GM plans with regards to marketing the Corvette has been done on a set pattern. Look to the C5 years. First came the coupe. Followed by the convertible with the Z06 coming in three years after the first C5 rolled off the assembly line.

I believe that we will see a repeat of this with the C6. However, I believe that we will a lighter vehicle with a smaller motor and as someone has mentioned here on the CAC before with a multi-cam (4 values per Cylinders) with higher power bands ( 6200rpm to 6500rpm ). The noise we are hearing from inside GM is that we will see a motor with a hp under the current level.

I honestly believe that we will not see a Z0? in 2005 production. What we all must remember is that what we would like to see is not necessary the way GM will go. They have to satisfy the "bean counters" and meet all government rules and requirements. Profit comes before customer wants!

I also believe that the values of the Z06s will stablize quickly and stand firm based on past marketing plans like the one used with the C5 program.

450hp sounds great but I am afraid that we will all have to wait until 2006 or 2007 to find out. Probably by that time we will be seeing a Z0? that is considerable lighter (maybe 2600lbs to 2800lbs) and a motor that will hit the market under or around 400 ponies. A better way to get the performance and meet all the CAFE and EPA requirements without bigger motors or high horsepower.

Like someone before me said, "..time will tell!"

[Edmond]

Stan,

Are they going to first crack down on the big cities in terms of emissions? Isn't LA the most notorious for their car pollution?

How do regulations affect cars such as the Ferrari, Viper, Lamborghini? Cars that are not mass produced...

[Stan A]

"Are they going to first crack down on the big cities in terms of emissions? Isn't LA the most notorious for their car pollution?"
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Actually, LA is just one of several cities that has a on-going pollution issue. In the last five to six years the automobile has contributed less to air pollution. Most large cities are still receiving a major portion of contaminates via the truck and bus industry and human activities (mechanical equipment). Also airports that are close to these cities are adding to the problem. These industries mentioned are harder to control with regards to clean air enforcements because of the many national associations. Simply put, it is easier to get the individual car/truck/SUV owners to conform than it is an entire industry. Car still contribute but on a smaller scale.
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"How do regulations affect cars such as the Ferrari, Viper, Lamborghini? Cars that are not mass produced..."
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The cars you mention all have very low production and distribution numbers here in North America. The Viper puts out around 1300 units a year, Lamborghini has had a history of delivering just under 300 cars a year to the US. Also cars like the NSX produce less than 1000 cars a year. I don't have a current tally on Ferraris but you will note there output here in the US is very low compared to Porsche model line. In the scheme of things with regards to the CAFE fuel mileage requirements, a entire production line of cars is averaged out and this number must meet or be above the set "miles per gas" number set by the feds. A few thousand cars in numbers does not really effect this average in most cases (most car lines produce more than 1,000,000 units a year). However, in the case of the Corvette where the production number is over 20,000 units plus, this does effect the over all average when compared to a model of a thousand or less. This is why I believe that the Vette will see a smaller motor in the future at some point. Porsche really has no problem meeting the requirements as they produce all their power via six cylinders with high side RPMs. Currently they can match the new guidelines coming up thru 2007.

Large displacement engines will become a thing of the past unless the manufacturers are welling to spend big bucks developing cleaner and more efficient operating units.

We all hate to that our performance cars are a "dying breed" but with government intervention, I believe that there is little chance that in the long run they will survive. New members that are getting chopped are the Camaros and Trans Ams.

That is why I have always said we need to hold on to our ZR1s, Z06s, 60's & 70's muscle cars, Callaways, Lingenfelter,and all the others. This way our grandchildren will have the opportunity to see what real cars were like!!!

Hope this helps.....................

[Edmond]

Stan,

With that being said that cars in the not so distant future will be held to much stricter emissions standards, how will those new standards affect the cars we're driving today? What about today's Z06's, ZR1's, C4's, C3's?

Surely, they can't expect some of the earlier C4's and C3's to abide by those standards that they'll set can they? I mean, the emission control technology in those cars is years old and they would have to be more lenient towards older cars right?

I'm not thinking about the "AV" plate vehicles because C4's and C3's are still being driven around as daily drivers as opposed to show cars and weekend drivers.

[Stan A]

Hi Ed,

Everything is "GRANDFATHERED IN" at the current level. Only new vehicles will be subject to meet new guidelines.

Thank Goodness.............................

[lytemup]

Stan-
even at 50,000 units, the vette is only something like 1% of GMs north american production. higher hp does not equate to higher emissions or even lower MPG. if the new vette came out with less power than the current, and no increase in performance measurements, it would be a horrible thing for chevy.

while shaving 500lbs off the vette would certainly be a spectacular thing, from an engineering prospective it is not as feasible as increasing power *and* lowering emissions. the press likes to talk about how cars today are heavier than in the 70s etc due to all the "gadgets", while it is most often overlooked that govt regulation on crashworthyness has led to a fleet of fairly similar looking/weighing sedans across all OEMs. let's remember that the C4 could not have been sold in 1997 (even if the C5 was delayed another year) due to side impact safety standards.

it makes me sick that the govt is forcing the OEMs to spend time and money to meet increasingly rediculus NOx requirements instead of pushing research for promising technologies with basically zero emissions (i.e. fuel cells).

well i could keep typing for an hour but i will leave it at this.

[ZR100060]

Stan,
Thanks for a great discussion. It is truly unfortunate the air resourses people have the power they do. Common sense plays little or no part in their decisions. Stationary power producers have been a MAJOR contributor to our air problems for many years, yet these violators are largely ignored, and the same applies to the trucking and mass transit agencies thoughout this country. Yet there is talk of severe controls on lawnmowers.

[Edmond]

Originally posted by lytemup
Stan-
even at 50,000 units, the vette is only something like 1% of GMs north american production. higher hp does not equate to higher emissions or even lower MPG. if the new vette came out with less power than the current, and no increase in performance measurements, it would be a horrible thing for chevy.

while shaving 500lbs off the vette would certainly be a spectacular thing, from an engineering prospective it is not as feasible as increasing power *and* lowering emissions. the press likes to talk about how cars today are heavier than in the 70s etc due to all the "gadgets", while it is most often overlooked that govt regulation on crashworthyness has led to a fleet of fairly similar looking/weighing sedans across all OEMs. let's remember that the C4 could not have been sold in 1997 (even if the C5 was delayed another year) due to side impact safety standards.

it makes me sick that the govt is forcing the OEMs to spend time and money to meet increasingly rediculus NOx requirements instead of pushing research for promising technologies with basically zero emissions (i.e. fuel cells).

well i could keep typing for an hour but i will leave it at this.

I perfectly see your point of view about the C4 not being able to sell in 1997. I honestly believe that my C4 isn't a very "crash worthy" car. It doesn't have air bags and the seat belts don't work. It's basically a huge piece of plastic with 4 wheels and one big motor. That could spell trouble for a less informed and more daring motorist.

[Edmond]

Stan,

But the Corvette brand could also do what they did in the past ie. ZR1 and produce a more powerful, less produced Corvette right? Say when the C6 comes along and buyers are yearning for more power, they could manufacture a Corvette with higher performance in a quantity low enough to stay under CAFE's radar right? Is that a possiblity?

I was told in physics that about 75% of a cars fuel is burned off and transferred to heat while the remaining is what actually powers the car. But diesel engines are more proficient so would GM produce more diesel powered auto's?

[lytemup]

BullWinkle-
i'm not sure what the % is, but the gasoline internal combustion engine is an inefficient machine.

as for diesel, the very reason nearly 50% of european cars are diesel is for MPG, or their efficeincy. so why doesn't gm, toyota, vw, anyone push lots of diesel in the good ol USA? turns out diesel, while been more effiencent from a useful work (MPG) standpoint, has HIGHER emmisions (especially NOx i believe). so companies with only so many emmision credits from uncle sam can't afford to sell too many high MPG diesel vehicles!

[Edmond]

Originally posted by lytemup
BullWinkle-
i'm not sure what the % is, but the gasoline internal combustion engine is an inefficient machine.

as for diesel, the very reason nearly 50% of european cars are diesel is for MPG, or their efficeincy. so why doesn't gm, toyota, vw, anyone push lots of diesel in the good ol USA? turns out diesel, while been more effiencent from a useful work (MPG) standpoint, has HIGHER emmisions (especially NOx i believe). so companies with only so many emmision credits from uncle sam can't afford to sell too many high MPG diesel vehicles!

Hey, that explains it! So why won't Uncle Sam crack down on some of these semi trucks that crowd our freeways? I'm sure those things are gas guzzlers!

[Stan A]

Although the Corvette is only 1% to 2% of all Chevy sales depending on the year, we have to remember that it is grouped in the car category which is about 40% to 55% of the entire production line. No knowing how many cars they will actually sell, the Corvette percentage could rise up to as much as 5% to 6%. Even at this level its very low but in the scheme of things, it does have some effect. There are other factors in the GM grouping which have included the Camaro and Firebirds which also used the LS series motor too.

With the demise of both these cars after this year, more focus should be on the Vette and their numbers. However, the EPA and CAFE requirements in most cases will force or reduce the power plants we will see. So in a sense, if CAFE does not get them EPA guidelines will in the long run.

In modern times GM (since the 1960's and 1970's)has never produced a car with more horsepower than 405 for stock street use. The ZR1 was first and now the Z06. So far the main reason has been the "gas guzzler" tax which at this time may or may not be in effect. As much as we would love to see more ponies, I believe that GM position will not change anytime soon even without the outside effects of EPA and CAFE.

Again, in reference to high horsepower like the LS6, we have to remember that each engine that the big three use in their vehicles has to be certified. Costs are a little over a million dollars per engine. As long as they stay with the original development format, re-testing does not need to be for certification. However, when changes come about through testing and development like with the LT5 back in 1988 and in this case a whole new motor, certification again had to be done.

The "bean counter" want to save money at every turn so by eliminating this process of certifications each year, they have chosen to use only three or four motors through an entire car line for a number of years in a row.

One other thing that we all need to look at is the engine application and reliability over years of use. The LS6 according to GM sources has reached 95% of its output limit of power based on its current setup. Yes, more power can be added but when you warranty a system repair and replacement costs are the real keys to whether more power is produced. Its the profit line that counts.

Increase in horsepower only occurs when sales are low or drop off or competition is present that is in the same price range. Currently, the Corvette product has no direct competition in its price range. The first year sales of the Z06 were good and the second year is expected to be higher and the 20 ponies has helped this. Note this year with regards to the 2003 Z06..no increase! Reason is that the ticket to increased sales will be based on the 50th Anniversary edition.

I still believe that the C6 will be marketed like the C5. Coupe first, than convertible a year or so later, and than a Z0? three to four years later. This process has worked well for two decades. Why fix someting that is not broken.

Stan

[Edmond]

Stan,

So is what you're saying that the 405 HP that GM has managed to wring out of the 350 the most that the 5.7 N/A motor is pretty much capable of?

I personally thought that rising competition was one of the reasons why they brought the Z06 into production in 01'. I also thought that they rushed the 2001 and the product they really intended to come out with was the one they eventually came out with in 2002.

But, there has been so much talk about how Bob Lutz will turn GM around and get more performance vehicles out there. I really hope that he can do it.

[lytemup]

stan- i can see we are not going to agree on this.

however, proposed cafe increases were defeated in congress earllier this year, and there is no way an increase will happen in the near future- possibly even during the lifespan of the C6. while emissions regs are getting tighter, there are technologies to help meet these regs (i.e. close-coupled-cats). while adding cost, it is relatively small in the price of a vette.

please also remember chevy is a division of GM, and that's where the numbers count. not chevy's car sales, GM's. i may b mistaken but i don't think cars and trucks are broken out in emissions like they are in CAFE (?).

(del)

[Edmond]

I'll have to agree with both Stan and lytemup on their points. I do agree that the government will impose or try to impose stricter standards on automotive emissions. But I also agree that all the car manufacturers will do their best to meet those standards and come out with higher performing cars.

[Wamp]

Bullwinkle

In reply to your FREE air and better MPG. If we are sacraficing horsepower for cleaner air than what is stopping you from building your own engine? In reply to cracking down on the Semi-truckers of the US that are paying a higher price for fuel than you and use alot more of it. These wonderful people that deliver your corvette from manufacturer to dealer and vitually all your parts to keep your car on the road, I wouldent be so forthcoming on putting even more restrictions on them than there are already or that oil filter may cost you $200.00 next time you change it.

[Stan A]

The Z06 Tremac 6 speed is at best very reliable under normal driving at mid to high rpms. When put under load and shifts come at the peak rpms (red line) for example, this tranny does show its short comings with intermittment failures in a higher percentage than GM wants to see. Power shifting increases the risk to so sort of failure. The claim is that 460hp/460ft-lbs torque limit according to Tremac. GM likes to build in a 50hp+ protection window in cases like this. Yes, GM could have raised the HP but it was not necessary because they had a "sale ploy" with the celerbration of the 50th anniversary. Again, look to the history of what GM has done as a guideline to what they may well do in the future.

The magazines need to sell their product. Match up of all these different cars is their tool to do this. I agree that the Viper is not in the same class as the Z06. But performance enthusiasts always ask the questions... How does each car stock up against the other? This one question sells millions of magazines worldwide.

Any manufacturer can build more power but at what cost. Warranties are the big issues. Development is the second. We have to remember what the bean counter function is...save and make money. The bean counters wear the so called pants in that large family.

The point of reversal on the CAFE requirements was only on the SUV and trucks. The car requirements are still the same but a small reduction was installed for 2004 to 2008. However, this still means that the manufacturers will have to make changes to be able to reach this point with regards to the cars. SUV and trucks were given a repreve by weight factor guideline changes.

However, the original guidelines of all vehicles under 5,000lbs of 28mpg average for 2008 is still setup to take place. This will mean that all cars, light trucks and SUV and Vans will need to get a minimum of 23mpg in the city and 33mpg on the road. Current 8 cylinder motors cannot supply or meet these guidelines. This is a little off the main subject but I felt that all of us should have all the facts with regards to this discussion. In order to meet these minimum CAFE guidelines, all manufacturers will began making small changes in this direction. Reduction of weight and smaller size motors across the board.

As to the point of sales as a guideline, each year each manufacturer use their previous numbers to estimate where they will being making changes. This helps them to determine where production effects CAFE in each category. Chevy as you stated is a part of GM. That why I mentioned in the previous thread that it was more than Corvette but camaros and Firebirds too.

Competition I referred to was in the form of sales and pricing alone not total performance. You still get more for your money with a stock Vette which does include all performance aspects than any other car built in that price range. With only a small handful of sports cars like the Mustang SVT Cobra, BMWZ3,BMWM3, and a couple of other, the Corvette has no direct competition that matches all elements especially performance for its sales price. This is especially true with the Z06!

The key here is that only time will show us what is to take place. However, like I said before, I see nothing benefical to the true enthusiasts to take place over the next 5 to 10 years. I hope I am wrong but with government intervention I am afraid most of our best times are behind us.

Everyone have a great holiday weekend....................

[Black Ice]

GM plans to employ a variable displacement engine Ala V8-6-4. There are plenty of High Tech tricks they can do to counter emissions problems lookfor the new version to first show up on the GM truck line. Also look for flexi fuel options.