PDA

View Full Version : Turbos or superchargers: The 100-year debate


Rob
01-28-06, 10:36 AM
Wednesday, January 25, 2006



Turbos or superchargers: The 100-year debate

Decades after each gained prominence, builders advocate one way, the other or both.

Don Sherman / New York Times

Sports fans expect a competition of any sort to be settled with simple-to-grasp finality -- win or lose -- but things are rarely so straightforward when it comes to the technology of automobiles.

Take, for instance, the question of which is the best way to produce horsepower: A large, lightly stressed engine can deliver effortless acceleration, but it is likely to be heavy and thirsty; a small engine tuned for high output should be more efficient, though it may be finicky to drive.
Both approaches to producing power are widely used today, with mechanical refinements helping to minimize the drawbacks of each; neither method is a clear winner.

Likewise, there is no undisputed champion when it comes to deciding the best way to wring maximum power from an engine built for the latest high-performance model. Turbochargers and superchargers each have loyal followers ready to cite the benefits of their favorite power-booster.
But neither can claim to be new: The turbocharger recently turned 100 and the supercharger is even older. And despite their long histories, neither seems a clear winner.

Which is best suited to a vehicle depends on the intended use. With both alternatives at their disposal, engineers consider cost, driving characteristics and the space available under the hood to determine which system belongs where.

Even on the same basic engine, the choice may change depending on the vehicle in which it will be used.

General Motors' four-cylinder Ecotec engine is a good example. It is supercharged when installed in the Chevrolet Cobalt SS and Saturn Ion Red Line, but turbocharged in the Saab 9-3 and the Pontiac Solstice GXP (a performance version of the roadster introduced this month at the Los Angeles auto show). In this case, the choice was driven by available space. Pontiac engineers may have been able to save some money by installing the supercharged version from the Cobalt, but there was room for only a turbo in the Solstice, whose engine is mounted front to back.

Turbochargers and superchargers are essentially pumps, raising output by forcing air into the engine rather than depending solely on the suction of the pistons to draw it in. (With more air, the engine can burn more fuel and generate more power.) Conversely, the same devices can be used to raise fuel economy by making smaller engines practical.

Alfred Buchi, a 26-year-old Swiss engineer, conceived the turbocharger in 1905 while researching gas turbines for a Belgian firm.

The turbo's 100-year path to success was not smooth. The first challenge faced by engineers adapting them to aircraft engines was improving the life expectancy of a device that is super hot on one side, below ice-cold (at altitude) on the other, and spinning at more than 30,000 rpm.

Countless improvements were needed to keep engines from blowing up under the high pressure developed by turbochargers. Because detonation is the Achilles' heel of any force-fed engine, high-octane gasoline developed for turbocharged engines in World War II fighters and bombers proved vital to making the technology practical.

Turbocharging took root in ships, trucks and locomotives; by the 1960s, it was ready for glamorous assignments in racecars and performance models. In 1962, the first turbocharged production car, the Oldsmobile F-85 Jetfire, took advantage of a water injection system developed by the military to avoid detonation.

The advent of emissions controls in the 1970s kept engineers busy perfecting anti-pollution devices like catalytic converters, exhaust-gas recirculators and fuel injectors. Porsche revived interest in turbocharging first by blowing away competitors in the Can Am racing series and then by giving its decade-old 911 a new lease on life by sticking a turbo in its tail. Turbo makers tried to reach beyond sports and performance models by proposing turbocharged four-cylinder engines as replacements for thirsty V-6s and V-8s. But most makers concluded that their old-school engines were smoother and cheaper than the suggested replacements.

At the ultraluxury end of the market, where cost is definitely not an issue, turbos are the booster of choice for Bentley, Maybach, and three Mercedes-Benz models. But as further evidence that neither approach can claim superiority, Cadillac, Jaguar, Land Rover and, yes, Mercedes-Benz offer 10 supercharged-V-8 models. To further befuddle the wealthy, Mercedes sells its SL roadster and S-Class sedan with the choice of a supercharged V-8 or a twin-turbo V-12.

It gets better. Last fall, Volkswagen introduced a Golf GT in Europe that has both a supercharger and a turbocharger. The supercharger improves low-end throttle response; the turbo kicks in to help generate 168 horsepower from a tiny 1.4-liter engine.

GerryLP
01-28-06, 12:36 PM
I voted Supercharger; however, I only voted this way because I live in an area that has an average 5,250' of altitude, and typically at this altitude the rated horsepower of a particular engine is somewhat diminished.

Therefore, I would be happy with a "part-time" Supercharger system that is designed to operate when the ambient pressure drops to a pre-determined level (perhaps at the first drop of 1 HgIn in ambient pressure). The more ambient pressure drop, then the more compensation in boost would take place to off-set the power loss that normally takes place.

GerryLP:cool

warren s
01-28-06, 05:07 PM
There are so many factors; it’s not a question of weather one is better it a question of, if one is better for the specific application.

Cost, complexity and durability on the application must be considered over maximum power output.Remember back in the late 80s Ford came out the Thunderbird Super Coupe? It ran a Supercharger because Ford realized that being on the induction side of the engine it would only have to be under warranty for the basic 12 month 12, 000 miles. While GM went with a turbo on the very successful Grand National and T-Types, as part of the exhaust system, it had much longer coverage (as part of the emissions control system)


Back in the mid 1940s, B-17 bombers were Turbo-Supercharged and water injected. It’s all up to the specific application.

Personally I would prefer a large engine pumping out tons of torque for my car.

Bioscache2
01-28-06, 05:20 PM
I like turbos because they a little more efficient then superchargers and on big engines there is almost no turbo lag, if we were talking smaller engines then I would vote supercharger.

Big engines are great but they have their size and weight limits and generally you can get the same power for less $$$ using forced induction.

grapeknutz
01-28-06, 07:12 PM
Turbo or turbos is the future of hotrodding.

6 Shooter
01-28-06, 07:44 PM
We have 1 of each, as far as performance give me the Supercharger, Turbo lag sucks!

Grizzly
01-29-06, 11:31 PM
Having crossed the Rockies on occasion, the real advantage I see is the adjustment turbos will make for differences in altitude. A fixed boost super charger will never make up what is lost.

Greg Gore
01-30-06, 10:20 AM
Turbos and superchargers are the lazy man's way to HP increase. Get a copy of "National Digger" and see why. When the engine starts to go away they just over drive the blower a little more. It takes engineering savvy and knowhow to get serious HP from naturally aspirated engines. The earlier turbo Corvettes were a flop in the marketplace and when they show up on the block at a Mecum auction now everyone walks away and goes to the concession stand to get a hotdog. Leave the boring turbos with turbo lag to Porsche. Consider the attention the new Z06 is getting is because it has the magic of a 427 again. If they really wanted to do something useful try restyling the outside of the engine so it isn't so dog gone ugly. The current offering is a great engine but it lacks the underhood cool factor appeal earlier engines had. I guess that's why they cover it up with plastic covers. What are you supposed to do? Raise your hood and show everyone all your plastic?

IMHO, Greg

Bioscache2
02-05-06, 01:12 AM
Turbo lag only exists on smaller engines. From all the people I've talked to and from my own experiance, there is no turbo lag on a vette or similiar sized engine. Full pressure is there at 2k rpm or lower sometimes. Thats something not even centrifugal superchargers can match and root blowers are incredibly inefficient as far as the parasitic load put on the engine.

Bigger engines are nice to a point, but if you have a vette and want more power, I'd rather install a TT system then pay for a bigger and heavier engine.

ajla
02-05-06, 07:58 PM
I'd rather install a TT system then pay for a bigger and heavier engine.

All put together, the LS7 is only 10 pounds heavier than the LS2.

I don't know much about them, so how much would a TT system weigh (and cost) that makes the LS2's output equal to an LS7?

Evolution1980
02-06-06, 12:44 AM
I'm pretty much completely novice to all this stuff, but it's not going to stop me from talking about it like I'm an expert ;LOL

1) There's no replacement for displacement. In the end, I'd rather have more power via natural aspiration ("NA"). I believe you'll get longer life from the less stressed engine components. Less parts to break. Less overall engineering involved. Less number of additional mods needed to the car.

2) I don't know the difference between turbos on small engines and turbos on big engines. What I've heard is that if the correct size turbo is mated to the specs of engine, lag should be minimal in either configuration. However...(see #3)

3) I could also reason out why big engines would spool up faster: Assuming the same size turbo is used on both the big and small engines (effectively going against what I just said in #2) ...Since turbos are based on exhaust pressure or volume, you'll naturally have more volume pumping out of larger cylinders, thus giving you more/quicker spooling of the turbos. Smaller engines will need more RPM's to be able to pump out the equivalent amount of air needing to spin the vanes, thus bringing the 'turbo lag'.

PROS & CONS
Superchargers have a more linear power curve because they are spun proportionately to the engine. This tendency is usually more appreciated on road courses due to the fact that accelerating through a corner will be smoother, as opposed to having a turbo spool up all of a sudden and giving you a surge of power thus causing unexpected under/oversteer.

At the drag strip, I've heard it's easier to launch a turbocharged car because you'll have just enough 'turbo lag', or delay, to allow you to get rolling before the surge of power hits. A supercharger is more likely to spin the tires longer off the line because the increased torque is RIGHT THERE from the start. Of course, if you have enough traction regardless of the amount of power, then the supercharger is preferred.

IMHO, a supercharger is an easier install, thus cheaper install than a turbo setup. Superchargers are simply setup at the beginning of the air intake, whereas turbos are on both ends (intake and exhaust), thus making for more required accomodations under the hood.

I believe a supercharger has a longer MTBF ("life expectancy"), which also helps to keep the total cost of ownership down.

Assuming each produced the same end result, I voted Supercharger.

In the post below, I put in the numbers I found for each setup based on a C5 LS1. For the single turbo -vs- supercharger, the specs are about the same. The supercharger is faster in the 1/4 mile, but the turbos take the top speed honors. I can't do a true comparison of twin turbo ("TT") -vs- Supercharger because of the major rear end gearing difference. However, one might conclude that traction issues notwithstanding, the TT is certainly going to be faster than the single, thus giving the same differences to the tested supercharger.

ADDITIONAL NOTES:
1) Car And Driver, where I pulled this info, noted that the turbo / TT setups were quite docile ("nicer") as daily drivers because under 'normal' driving conditions, the turbos never really spooled up, which allowed for expected stock-like performace/drivability.

2) I also included the specs for the 427 engine, beit Lingenfelters or GM's LS7. As I said, I'd rather have displacement above all, and given the cost of the forced induction -vs- cubes, the additional cubes make for a better showing in the 'bang for the buck' category.

Evolution1980
02-06-06, 02:12 AM
Here are the numbers I was able to dig up on the turbo, twin turbo, and supercharged. And for reference, I also put in the 427 (C6 Z06 for referencing additional displacement -vs- induction

Single Turbo
Rear end gearing... 3.42:1 --- 3.15

0-60... 3.8 sec --- ???
to 100... 7.7 sec --- ???
to 150... 16 sec --- ???
1/4 mile... 11.8 sec @ 127 mph --- 12.1 sec @ 122 mph
Top Speed (5th gear)... 202 mph --- 197 mph
Twin Turbo
Rear end gearing... 2.73:1

0-60 mph... 4.4 sec
0-100 mph... 8.2 sec
0-150 mph... 15.3 sec
1/4-mile... 12.1 sec @ 134 mph**
Top Speed: 223 mph(** The clutch and the flywheel were warped and damaged during launch, diminishing acceleration performance.)

Supercharger
Rear end gearing... 3.42:1 (not verified)

0-60... 3.7 sec
0-100... 7.7 sec
0-150... 17.9 sec
1/4-mile... 11.7 sec @ 126 mph
Top speed (estimated) 197 mph
427 NA
Rear end gearing... 3.42:1

0-60... 3.4 sec
0-100... 7.8 sec
0-150... 17.5 sec
1/4-mile... 11.7 sec @ 124 mph
Top Speed (estimated) 198 mph

Bioscache2
02-06-06, 03:05 PM
All put together, the LS7 is only 10 pounds heavier than the LS2.

I don't know much about them, so how much would a TT system weigh (and cost) that makes the LS2's output equal to an LS7?
They don't make TT systems that small to just match the ls7 starting with an ls1 or ls2. But a $7500 system would have, at the flywheel, around 700 hp and tq with a moderate tune. Weight would probably be comparable.

Evolution as for superchargers, centrifugal ones match engine speed, root blowers do not and are essentially instantly on.

ajla
02-06-06, 03:33 PM
They don't make TT systems that small to just match the ls7 starting with an ls1 or ls2. But a $7500 system would have, at the flywheel, around 700 hp and tq with a moderate tune. Weight would probably be comparable.


:eek With those kind of numbers, I think I might want to change my vote.

How much do you think GM would charge for a 700 hp turboed-LS2 Corvette?