C1 why not? engine question

IH2LOSE · 05-09-05, 08:07 AM

You know I was reading an book about chevy engines,I it seems the 409 has been around for a while and it was considered a somewhat performance motor.

How come it never made it into a Corvette.

BarryK · 05-09-05, 08:58 AM

Larry, I could be way off base here as i'm just guessing but my understanding is that Zora never liked the idea of a heavy big block in the Vettes. I think he fought hard to avoid that as he had designed the car to be as balanced as possible and the lighter weight of the SB's helped make that happen and the cars were designed to handle best with the SB's. The heavier BB motors threw off his weight distribution on the car but he couldn't fight it forever because of the "horsepower race" in the mid and late 60's and people wanting more and more powerful motors in the cars. I think it was marketing and sales that probably was finally able to get the BB motors in the Vettes against Zora's wishes. By than they had the 396 motor which we all know made it in the Vettes halfway thru '65.
As I said, this is pretty much only a guess and i'm sure JohnZ will chime in with the correct answer and blow my theory completely apart

Sting Ray · 05-09-05, 11:04 AM

I believe that GM didn't want any bigblocks in midsize cars when the '63 was being designed, and when the GTO came out and they realized people would check the box with the most C.I.'s and H.P., they changed there mind, isn't that why the L88 is labeled 430?

Tom M

BarryK · 05-09-05, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sting Ray

I believe that GM didn't want any bigblocks in midsize cars when the '63 was being designed.Tom M

Tom, would be Vette actually be considered a "midsized' car in the 60's? looking at the size of other cars on the market than (American cars at least) wouldn't the Vette be considered more of a "small" car? Of course, this would just make your theory even stronger but if the Vette was midsized, what did they have that was smaller. most cars back than were huge!

jr7221 · 05-09-05, 11:45 AM

348 and 409 were truck engines, I had a 409 in a 63' Impala SS conv., it had two 4's and a 4 gear tranny, what a wild ride, slow off the line but anything above 40 mph, warp speed, the only draw back was when you put your foot in it, you could watch the gas gauge drop like a rock...what a ride!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

JohnZ · 05-09-05, 12:47 PM

The 348/409 was originally a truck engine, and was very heavy (and costly to manufacture due to the odd angle of the deck surfaces); the Mark IV big-block engine was well into development in 1963 as a new design which would replace the 348/409 in all its applications anyway, and would be a less-expensive upgrade beyond the (even more expensive) Rochester fuel injection system.

WayneC · 05-09-05, 07:04 PM

I agree with JohnZ.... Another reason probably had to do with the rules of the sports car racing associations, although I do not know exactly what they were at the time. I'm not an avid racing fan, so I could be mistaken about this, but I seem to recall that the allowed engine size for the class the Corvettes competed in was planned to be raised to something like 428 CI, which kicked off the Mark IV project. Generally engines were designed to be almost exactly the displacement size that the rules would allow for racing classes (perhaps an inch or two below for one re-bore or a safety margin on tear-down by judges), and Zora would have been sensitive to that. GM called an immediate halt to all factory-supported race programs in 1962 or 1963 (I can't recall which) and suspended all race-related engine projects, which shelved the Mark IV development for a couple of years.

Tom Bryant · 05-10-05, 10:34 AM

I wish I would have taken some pictures. Not all C1s escaped the wrath of the 409. In 1975 my friend Larry and I brought home 2 1955 Corvettes. One was a one repaint straight red car with a hardtop and a 1961 283/270 engine, which I still have. I put a 1955 265 PP in the car and returned it to it's owner.

The other one my friend bought. it was pearl white with purple flames and a 1964 409/425 horse engine. We tore it apart and was able to save one head and the carbs and intake. Everything else was bent broken or ventilated. #3 piston and rod had exited the opposite side of the block. That must have been something to see. Both of these cars came out of Florida.

The pearl car, upon further investgation, ended up being one of 20 1955s painted Harvest Gold with a green interior. He sold the car a few years later without finishing it and I have no idea where it went.

I just moved that 1961 engine into my shop a week ago. I'll post some pics.

Tom

IH2LOSE · 05-10-05, 11:44 AM

Thanks guys for the insight.In case you dont know yet I am a big Block guy thru and thru,I just love tourque.

I dont under stand weight balance and rally racing just straight out stop light to stop light stuff. So to me it just seemed like a no brainer

wallyknoch · 05-11-05, 11:27 AM

Basically as everyone stated, a 348 truck engine that first received the popular late 50`s GM tri power setup. Later dual quads and 409`s + I recall some were all the way to a 427 trying to improve it`s performance, but the cylinder heads just didn`t cut it. Also by this time I believe the 396 was already in development and that engine everyone knows is a hell of a lot better than any beach boys 409.

studiog · 05-11-05, 09:48 PM

Larry I had a 409 in a 64 Vette. It had dual quads with I think an Offenhauser intake. It was built up pretty good. The floor boards had been cut so the header collectors could clear. Like someone else said it was slow of the line but once you were rolling it was a "wild ride". Seem to remember replacing allot of bent push rods too.