I sure hope Chevy Learns from the T-Bird for the C6

[Black Ice]

I really like the interior of the T-Bird. It has a much higher quality feel then the C5. The seats look and feel more expensive and are much more rigid then the crap in C5. I was suprised how C5 ish the T-Bird felt inside in size. The only thing Ford could have done better is the cluster. The rest of the interior is far better then C5. I can only hope the C6 sheds that cheap rubber painted plastic, and flimsy seats.

[Edmond]

Ice,
I don't have a C5, but have taken looks at the interior and perfectly understand your disappointment. The interior really does look like cheap toy plastic. You'd expect more than that for $50,000!

[danl72]

I guess we will see what GM does. I don't mind the interior, I think it is still more confortable than most cars.

[sleepyhead]

Let's just hope that the C6 DOESN'T take certain cues from the T-Bird. My best friend works at the Ford Wixom plant which produces the Thunderbirds. They've been having so many problems with them that you wouldn't believe it.

The main problems involved water leakage. (When it rained, the car doubled as a bath tub.)

Then, soon after that, a Ford Executive took one out for a test drive and they ended up having to call a tow truck after he got a few miles away!

-J

[DkBG]

T-Bird ? It looks to me like they retroed a Falcon !

[C V Man]

I always thought they should bring back the Pinto.
It always was the best BANG for the buck.

Then, soon after that, a Ford Executive took one out for a test drive and they ended up having to call a tow truck after he got a few miles away!

What did he expect? I'm surprised it made it that far!

The C6 needs:

-Wipers that converge in the center

-Fuel filler door on top of rear deck

-A throaty exhaust (stock)

-None of the problems the C5 has


C V Man
(Had 2 Pintos and was pleased with both)

[Black Ice]

I hope they do to the Pinto was a good car. Much better then that piece of crap Vega. Ford is still out doing GM in the small car market, the Focus is a much better care then a Cavalier. Count on it.

[judas vette]

who cares about the seats .but gm really should learn from ford.ford also took a old stylish look on the thunderbird and so should the corvette.the best thing a c3 look a like.this would be really great

Jason

[Dad]

I too think they should learn from Ford, that way my C5 will still be in style for the next 5 years. I was in 3 of the 5 plants they are closing, good people, but they suffer from the same things GM does, bottom line management. Hummm, 35,000 people to be thrown out, must be the great cars they build, or could it be the planning. My boss is a dyed in the wool Ford man, now driving a Chevy street rod, he's learning.

[Black Ice]

The body style is really not at issue in this thread. The interior of the T Bird is made of higher quality components and has the look of a more expensive car. The C5 interior has the look of a 30K car far from its 50K price tag. It Looks and feels CHEAP. Lets hope GM fixes this next time around.

[Edmond]

Ice,

They give you so much for the money, I guess they have to comprimise somewhere;)

I'd say the layoffs are for the management to retain their bonuses and high salary more than anything else.

[Black Ice]

You really think a $52K Corvette Vert is a lot for the money?? Take a look at the DeVille DTS inside and out. There is no way the Corvette costs more to produce then that car. The North Star is a much more expensive motor. The Corvette is 90% mark up and profit for GM.

[Edmond]

Honestly,

I doubt that it even costs $25,000 to put a brand new Corvette together. I mean parts, labor and all. Even under the hood, there are a lot of cheap plastic parts!

[Dad]

You're right, it don't cost $25,000 to put one together, Ice already told you it only cost $5,200, the other 90% is mark up and profit.

By the way, my Seville SLS, a class or 2 above the DeVille, has lots of plastic under the hood also. Not a lot different than what my C5 has. It's hard to pick the one I want to drive, both are so near the same comfort level on the road, now getting in and out is another story, along with the fun factor.

Just for kicks I went down to the local Ford dealer this afternoon and sat in a red Thunderbird that has a light brown leather and plastic interior. Smells good, feels alright, but just don't make the grade for being better than the car I got out of. I still like the car as a whole, I think they did a fine job. It will sell and will become very popular if present buying trends holds a little longer.

One thing is for sure, we won't lose many Corvette Club members to the Thunderbird, if any.

[Black Ice]

The DeVille DTS has so much more content then a Corvette it isn't funny, for almost the same price as a loaded C5 Vert. All Im saying is it sure would be nice to have that higher quality leather and materials in the next C6. Even the Buick SUV has better leather then a C5. Chevrolets choice of "bargain basement" materials is a disgrace in a 50+K car of any kind.

[Dad]

You missed my whole point, the car I drove down to the Ford dealer was the C5. They had a good time ribbing me about "You're not going to trade that in, are you?" and we compared the seats. The out come was, "they must be made by the same supplier", which is a good probability since there are only a few seat manufactures in the states. They remarked that they thought the seats (car) looked new and was surprised it was 4 ½ years old with 30,000 plus miles. Had to take one of the salesmen for a test ride, his only comment was, “love the pipes”, he never mentioned the cheap interior.

I would guess that the bolster wear may have influenced your perception of the materials and the fact that the problem was fixed by the use of vinyl.

[Edmond]

One time me and a co-worker got this idea to go down to this Ford dealership that also deals Porsche and see if we could test drive a nice Porsche. We figured that we couldn't even get in the door because our job calls for us to wear crappy clothes, etc...

I say we boycott all Corvettes until they drop the price down to $5,200. Is anyone with me on this one?:nono

[Black Ice]

The Seats in a C5 are 2/3 vinyl. A 50K car with vinyl seats?? I dont think so. Lets see lets just spend a little more money on thicker better leather that wouldn't wear holes through it. OOOh OOh thats right it would improve the look and feel of the interior but eat into GMs profits by about $200.00 per unit. FORGET THAT let them sit on VINYL says the general.

[StillDreaming]

It would be awesome to buy a new VETTE for only $5200, I know that I would, maybe two or three, one of each model. You have to remember that with a price of approx. $50,000, you can not fine anything better in the world. Show me an American car that looks better and and is faster for the money. Doesn't happen. I like the interior of the car, it would not bother me to have to drive one around all of the time. Think of how lucky you are just to have one, I know that I would feel lucky to have one. It is weird to see everyone complain about something that you love so much. Be proud that we are free and have the opportunity to drive such an awesome machine. If all of you are so dissatisfied you can give me you cars, ill take them all and care for them the way they are supposed to be cared for.

[Dad]

Stilldreaming/keepdreaming,

You can have my C5, (yeah right), all you have to do is work for it like I did, cash will do. By the way, my first Corvette cost me $3683 new in 1957. Do I feel lucky to drive the C5? No, it was hard work and years of it to get to where I am.

I spent my time in the Army and know what it's like to have the freedom to own what I want. My best guess is that if you were given a C5 it wouldn't get as good care as I give my cars, if that's what you were implying. You'll have your car, it just takes time, good luck and go for it.

Welcome to CACC.


Actually Ice, there is less than 20%, not 66% vinyl, alot of leather seats have vinyl or cloth sides. If you really want to know I'll go back to the Ford dealer and mike the leather thickness on the Thunderbird and my C5. I don't think the Bird is going any where soon. I see they still have the top down this morning, darn thing looks great.

[Edmond]

For that matter, you won't find a better value for your dollar than the Corvette, no matter what car.

I wonder what the markup is for those European cars that routinely top the $100,000 mark.

[StillDreaming]

What I meant about being lucky was that we are fortunate the GM builds such a great car for such a great price. Obviously I love the car, maybe one day I will own one. I can not afford it right now, but maybe in a couple of years. I work hard every day one day I will pay for my own VETTE. I just do not like all of the complaining about the car that's all. Every car on the road has problems, we just know more about the CORVETTE than most know about their cars. I did not mean to offend. Sorry.

[Dad]

Hey, no offence taken, and I'm not complaining. Hopefully you are taking this as information and not criticism. My 98 C5 seems to be avoiding all the complaints that I’ve seen here, lucky, maybe. I think it is a great machine and those that I drove in the past were just a hint of what was to come.

I have tried a few Corvette news groups/forums and this is by far the best bunch of people out there. Hang in there and enjoy the ride.

Every time I see the commercial for Ebay with all of the older Corvettes for sale it reminds me of the fact that there is no other car out there with that kind of following.

Like I said before, hang in there, you’ll get the Corvette if you really want it. Never give up that dream, or any others you have, life is great.
:upthumbs

[whvt2001]

From some of these posts are we talking about the 2002 T-bird.

Ford has a long way to go with the new bird before comes
close to the options on the C-5. No dimming mirrors, no lighted
vanity mirrors, no memory seating, no easy exit drivers seat,
nothing close to the HUD, no stability control, no performance
tires just all weather. Could go on an on. At the moment
can't seem to seal the roof.

We will probably take delivery of the car even with the first
year problems. It's a nice looking package. As for comparing
to a C-5 they aren't even in the same class and Ford wasn't
even trying to compete.

We had a 00 Lincoln LS8 on which the bird is based. Of 11 options
on that car the T-Bird had 1. The MSRP on the LS was lower too.
As for the interior, its the LS so ? on higher quality, many
complained the LS was cheap looking inside.

[vettepilot]

Hey Stilldreaming,
Hang in there on getting your first Corvette. I was 19 and entered the Army the year you were born, didn't get my first Vette until I was 41, now 10 years later I just got my third. It will happen if you want it to, just don't let others distract your ambitions by telling you it's frivilous, or has only two seats, or gets bad gas mileage etc etc.
As for the T-Bird looks, I think they need to lean forward and get rid of the retro-look on cars that have a history. Chrysler was the first to bring the retro-look to the market place and did quite well with the PT Cruiser. That worked well because the PT Cruiser was looked at more like a "toy" at first. Then people discovered it has a very well designed and useful interior layout, and the sales went through the roof. The price was within the range of the younger set that wanted something to customize that wasn't just another econo-box.
The T-Bird heritage deserves more than a gimmic retro-look, I think Ford should re-evaluate what they want to do with the T-Bird nameplate before the "look" wears off and potential buyers look elsewhere.
Chevy seems to be standing their ground with the Corvette, they know that Corvette buyers don't really want gimmics, they want performance. I also think that's why we don't see them jumping to improve the interior levels to compete with the luxo cars. It isn't intended to compete with the interior styling or quality of the Lexus, BMW, or Caddy. The interior is very lightweight compared to the heavy interiors of the luxo models. Many true enthusiasts would have to begin ripping out the interior just to reduce the weight for competative racing.
Maybe they should look at the idea of offering two or three levels of interiors, the ZO6 borders on that idea, only one power seat, no sound insulation, no CD changer offered, thinner windshield and backlight.
However, by contrast to the rest of the automotive market, the Vette is still a limited production vehicle. The Corvette 35,000 units / year is about 1/10th the annual production volume of a standard vehicle model. The breakdown of models within the Vette production to Coupes, Verts, and ZO6s reduces the volume of each to a very small number, then to break those figures down into interior configurations reduces the numbers into the hundreds. That probably isn't worth the $$$$ it would cost to offer those numerous options, or it would necessitate raising the vehicle price to a level that would place it out of the reach of the target market.

[maxrevs85]

I remember when I bought my 1st vette in 1970. 350/350 silver conv. black int., 4speed am/fm $5278 sticker....paid I think. $4850 Approx. Wow without the profit margin $520.....lol.....I was twenty yrs old and insurance was about $200/yr and I think my payment was $175/month/36 mths. Now THOSE were the days. But I believe I was making $3.50 /hr :D

[Scissors]

What everyone seems to forget is that part of the C5's price comes from the fact that it is a low-volume vehicle that doesn't share a lot of parts with other vehicles. In fact, the C5 introduced more all-new parts than the C1 did when it first came out. Low volume on a part=higher price. Ever seen the price for a Viper's hood alone? At least the Firebird (of which about as many are sold as 'Vettes) has the benefit of being almost exactly the same as the Camaro and uses parts that many other cars also use.

Ever seen the interior of a Lamborghini Diablo? It's not that great. However, it is exotic and sold in extremely low numbers; thus, a higher price is paid to have the various component manufactured for it.

[CSDMagred01]

I have to agree with the Vette being a bargain. I've owned Porsches for over 10 years and due to low volume and high cost to introduce new parts, they didn't change the interior for 20 years prior to 1999. They use high quality leather on the seats but even they only use leather on the front surfaces, not the sides or back.

GM put the investment in the hardware where it means more to me. Although the radio is the same as my friends Tahoe and I read the seats will wear. That's fine, I'll take the performance of the Corvette for the price rather than the extra $30M for the Porsche. I can replace a lot of radios and seats with that money. :D

[inferno-vette]

Interior, whats that? in a corvette? never heard about it!!! Corvettesare all about !@#$%& power, not confort or luxury!
The only thing I wish for the C6 is a lot more power than the C5 something like in the 500's or even a special 600 hp to go with C6 that's what corvette is all about!!!! like the +/- 560hp L-88 and ZL-1.
Hope I have somebody that thinks with me because I don't wan't to see our beloved Corvette look like a Cadillac!!!!!!
Paul

[ZiroCool]

Personally I think the t-bird looks like sh_t! I'm sure they'll improve the interior of the c6. My c5 works for me, and very comfortable to me.

[69MyWay]

There is one huge factor that dictates the lack of luxury and firm feeling interior in the C5 vs. a Caddy, or Buick, or even the T-bird.

Although the Caddy has a high output engine, it is not known for its overall performance. In fact, Ford has gone out of their way to market the new T-Bird as a modern icon instead of a performance car. I am sure you have all seen the ads where the hot chick gets out of the exotic speed machine to flag a drag race with the T-bird, only to find out that the t-bird driver does not take off and race when she drops the scarf, but instead takes the hot chick home with him. High performance has not been the target of the new T-bird.


Part of the incredible challenge faced by the C5 engineers relates to that fine balance between creature comforts, and all out performance. One of the very best ways to achieve higer performance is to drop weight. Anywhere you can drop the weight, the better. Where the Caddy engineers look for thicker, richer, quieter materials to decorate the cabin, Corvette is looking for the lightest possible acceptable stuff.


In the end, you get two different types of interiors that do not compare. If Corvette had the luxury appointments found in the T-bird and Caddy, it would be heavier and more sluggish on performance. When you are bidding to be THE production super car of the world, you look for every possible ounce in every possible component. Over the whole of the car, the ounces add up to pounds, and so on.

From my perspective, I am satisfied with the balance that they have attempted to reach. I look at my wife's 2000 and sometimes wish for better quality looking switch bezels, leather trim, and thicker richer panels and dash trim. In the end however, when I am hanging on for dear life as she is slamming it through the gears......it is surprising how all those small details get forgotten.....

I honestly don't expect the C6 to have a more rich looking or feeling interior unless there is either a breakthrough in materials technology that allows them to fool you into thinking it is made of more exotic luxury materials, or......sky rocketing fuel prices, emissions standards, etc. kill the performance of the car and they end up only able to market it based upon a throaty exhaust tone and plenty of luxury appointments.

(kind of reminds me of the last few shark bodies....nicest interiors and options EVER offered, in some of the lowest powerplants available)

[Dad]

Can't agree more, except ---

In the end, you get two different types of interiors that do not compare. If Corvette had the luxury appointments found in the T-bird and Caddy, it would be heavier and more sluggish on performance.

The T-bird don't come within a country mile of having the interior that my Seville has and the hi output engine only comes on in an RPM range most blue hairs never reach.

[69MyWay]

Originally posted by Dad


The T-bird don't come within a country mile of having the interior that my Seville has and the hi output engine only comes on in an RPM range most blue hairs never reach.


:L It is true! If they happen to slip and nail the throttle wide open, I sure hope they have on an extra strength pair of depends!

That Northstar system is out of this world. I have a bunch of Fiero buddies dropping them in Fieros.....Dare I say....C5 killers without getting flamed?

[Edmond]

Okay, say for instance that there is a delete A/C option. How much weight would that really save? And doesn't the engine lose a few horses to the rear wheels from A/C?

Where can you save weight at? Chevy seemed to go to great lengths to trim the Z06 weight down and it seemed like they "only" shaved off 100 pounds or so from the coupe.

[69MyWay]

TZracer here on CAC is a die hard racer. He has many victories to mark his success. He has taught me much about the value of saving weight on a car.

They look at everything. Like I said before, each ounce adds up to a bigger pay off. If this means using plastic bezels instead of metal on switches, or in the case of the C5, a simple rubber overlay on the door switches, it all adds up.

Remember the 1LE special option Camaro. It came with no a/c or radio. It was pure performance.

What does a radio and speakers really weight afterall? Not much, but little by little you get somewhere.

TZracer is currently restoring his 71 big block shark. He has been cutting holes in the brackets, switching steele for aluminum, and using glue where he could use screws. Why........well, you get the picture. "They" say that every 100 pounds equals 1/10th of a second in the 1/4 mile with all other things being equal.

I think the C5 engineers are on the same wavelength.

You can't build a car that pleases everybody all the time.

[Edmond]

Chris,

So if I leave off the spare tire, that plastic housing unit for the spare tire and all the speakers, I could eliminate quite a few pounds?

I could take the air conditioner items from under the hood out of there too right, that is if I don't want A/C.

Are the 5 spoke wheels lighter than the sawblade wheels?

I'm really starting to truly understand what you're saying and it's making perfect sense!

What other ways are there to eliminate weight?

This looks like a project for me to undertake when I get that LT4 in a few years. Just a couple more simple mods and I'll be satisfied with my L98.:t

[Dad]

Why just the A/C, let’s dump the heater, radio, center console, power windows, padded dash, air bags, ABS, and all the electronics “Door ajar” crap. Of course with the use of 30 gage wire that won’t cut much weight. I do agree with the fuel management system electronics, 6 speed, Z51, posi, and maybe the small block 427. I think I paid close to $300 to get a radio and heater in my ’57 and then never used them.

[Edmond]

Yes, they could have a heater delete. But some of us live in colder climates like here in the Chicago area and not having heat just isn't possible.

Air bags, I could do without. ABS, that's a tough one because you do want the car to have good stopping distances.

Aerodynamics also play a huge factor in making the car go fast. I'm sure they could play with the side mirrors so they'd produce less drag. And I would replace the pop up lights so you don't have that aerodynamic problem when you're driving at night.

[69MyWay]

There was a fantastic article in hot rod years ago where they took a 500 cubic inch caddy and ran the 1/4 mile. It was like 18 seconds.

Then, one by one, piece by piece, they hacked the car up and ran it again.

By the time they were done, it was a radiator support, radiator, frame, engine, trans, diff, steering column, seat, pedals, and the basic cowl/firewall.

It ended up running sub 12's with slicks on the otherwise stock engine.

So, there you go.

[Dad]

Tell me about your cold weather, I'm about 10 miles South of you in the tropics. I drove a 46 REO through Chicago back in 56 when it got 8 below without a heater, little did I know that 15 of those cows in the back would be my first vette. :cool

[Edmond]

Dad,

These past few winters have been on the average not too bad. But there have been instances where I had the rear defog and heater on; the little battery warning came on. Seems that both sides of the hatch were frozen and just wouldn't become unfrozen until warmer weather. I've had the locks freeze on me, doors freeze on me.

Plus, we're known as the "Windy City" so our temperatures with the wind chill during the winter routinely get down to 10-15 degree's. Then you factor in the snow, ugh.

I'm sure some of the other Chicago area land members can definitely tell some stories of their own.

[BigRed]

If you really want to shed the weight, can't you go to a hand welded/Hydraulicly Tubed Aluminum frame? Then go to a Carbon Fiber body!

Imagine that on a all aluminum engine with the Z06 Exhaust with Magnesium wheels...

Scrap the buckets go with Corbeau or Sparco..

(Leave the radio Cmon now LOL)