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PLRX
01-17-05, 01:57 PM
If Corvette produces a SUV, would you buy it? Porsche, Cadillac and others did it..

Ripp 76
01-17-05, 02:12 PM
Well, it's a little different though. They did not take a platform like the Boxter and make a SUV out of it. They created the SUV. So to create a SUV out of the Corvette seems impractical.

JEFNLSA
01-17-05, 02:14 PM
If Corvette produces a SUV, would you buy it? Porsche, Cadillac and others did it..

I would be disappointed.

Let me add...(although I may be spinning off in a different direction~ sorry)

As a commuter, I'm a bit tired of the whole SUV thing.
It's kinda like the baggy pants thing. Why do you need a pair of pants that are 10 sizes too big? I'm "old school"...where your clothes fit!

We have these "people" (lone driver) driving to work in these Hummers, Excursions etc.. all lifted and decked out (probably have never seen dirt) clogging up the hwy.

Why do I need a car/truck that seats twelve to take me to work? My two-seater Vette is just right for the job...and then some!

I hope the Vette stays the way it is...and Chevy never offers us another version to turn into a "bling mobile".:L

vetteboy86
01-17-05, 02:22 PM
I don't really see it happening. I guess if chevrolet wanted to make a suv with some more pep they could do that. However I think the corvette is an icon as far as automobiles go, and it is best left alone. Although I have seen a few vettes with lift kits and 35 inch swampers.

Oh Monster Garage built a mud rat vette or something like that. It rocked, and it was equipped with 4WD. Looked just like a vette, perhaps a late 70's :_rock


Craig

94conv.
01-17-05, 02:52 PM
That vette 4X4 on monster garage was a darn nice vette to start with, I have mixed feelings on that one.

NevadaJim
01-17-05, 03:36 PM
Chevy tried a high performance SUV a couple years back -- the Typhoon. It was 'custom' blazer with a Corvette motor (don't remember which one, might have been the LS1), lowered to move the center of gravity, and went like a bat of you know where (compared to other SUVs). This is probably (hopefully) as close as Chevy will come to a 'Corvette SUV' ~ just my .02

87blackroxi
01-17-05, 04:02 PM
The corvette is one of the few cars that has not been yet replicated. ie. ford has mustang, chevy has a camaro etc. To produce a corvette suv I think it would take the vette out of that realm. Look at all the suv's already out there! We don't want to be like them. We are unique, we are vette owners.
Nothing compares to what we have!

Mart
01-17-05, 04:05 PM
The Porsche Cayanne is more like a 911 on steroids than an SUV.

I don't see Ferrari with an SUV, or lotus, Lamborghini did make one, did'nt go over too well though.

But Corvette, there is really only one car in the lineup, there ahve always been several Caddy's, but only one corvette!

Mart

cjs2
01-17-05, 04:59 PM
I agree - impractical. Not to mention that Chevy already makes SUVs and they are popular. Porsche did not have one and wanted to get into the market....same as Caddy and Lincoln. When I am not behind the wheel of the Vette I drive a 2004 Suburban 2500.....and I love it. Not sure I would be interested in a Corvette SUV.

Florida Guy
01-17-05, 05:32 PM
:puke

bossvette
01-17-05, 06:14 PM
GM already has enough SUVs to go around from the smallest to the largest there is something for everybody. The Corvette was here before the SUV and will be here after they fade away from the fickle public back to rhe Farmers and Sportsmen who use them properly.

MyOtherCar
01-17-05, 09:22 PM
Chevy tried a high performance SUV a couple years back -- the Typhoon. It was 'custom' blazer with a Corvette motor (don't remember which one, might have been the LS1), lowered to move the center of gravity, and went like a bat of you know where (compared to other SUVs). This is probably (hopefully) as close as Chevy will come to a 'Corvette SUV' ~ just my .02

GMC, not Chevy, Performance SUV, yes, but came equipped w/4.3L supercharged engine to AWD. Awesome vehicle and VERY fast!! In addition, GMC made a pick-up version called the Cyclone. Ditto speed stuff

NevadaJim
01-17-05, 09:27 PM
GMC, not Chevy, Performance SUV, yes, but came equipped w/4.3L supercharged engine to AWD. Awesome vehicle and VERY fast!! In addition, GMC made a pick-up version called the Cyclone. Ditto speed stuff

Your right, thanks for the correction.

G Winter
01-17-05, 09:34 PM
Doesn't Cadillac use the vette chassies and drivetrain ?;shrug

74bigblock
01-17-05, 09:57 PM
:puke

Couldn't have said it better myself!

lnirenberg
01-17-05, 10:19 PM
Cayenne as model--top heavy for a "sports" vehicle and did I mention heavy. 450 hp turbo gets you stright lin 0-60 in 5.2. With 3 kids I need a large capacity vehicle for weekend schlepping hence SUVs saves the ego from mini-van hell, but I'll take mine vanilla--get me & pack loads of kids from point a to point b. One of my great delights in owning an old vette is that my family absolutely can not come with me! Vette SUV? No, no a million times no.

hpbadger
01-17-05, 11:12 PM
No. I am even dissapointed that Buick produced an suv. Nothing against suvs but I am very traditional when it comes to cars in general.

jwilliams
01-17-05, 11:42 PM
I'd drive a ricer with a fart can first. For that matter if chevy sold out the corvette in this manner I'd sell my vette , tell my dad to sell is 65 coupe and never, ever own another gm product as long as I lived. I kinda have issues with GM using the c5 chassis and z06 motors in a couple of cadillacs. Although I actually would consider owning the cts-v. But I'd rather see the chassis, motor and any other vette parts stay pure to the vette. Interesting to see that DC has committed crimes against the viper by using the chassis for some half baked coupe and they stole the motors for pick ups.

WhalePirot
01-17-05, 11:46 PM
GMC, not Chevy, Performance SUV, yes, but came equipped w/4.3L supercharged engine to AWD. Awesome vehicle and VERY fast!! In addition, GMC made a pick-up version called the Cyclone. Ditto speed stuffI was going to buy one, but it had zero towing capacity. They were really hot rod trucks not SUVs, IMHO. While beating MOPAR to that punch, the trucks were rather ho-hum in styling, set off by little but lowering and wide tires.

LT1-MP
01-18-05, 02:21 AM
:puke








LMAO!

:beer

Mart
01-18-05, 03:40 AM
I'd drive a ricer with a fart can first. For that matter if chevy sold out the corvette in this manner I'd sell my vette , tell my dad to sell is 65 coupe and never, ever own another gm product as long as I lived. I kinda have issues with GM using the c5 chassis and z06 motors in a couple of cadillacs. Although I actually would consider owning the cts-v. But I'd rather see the chassis, motor and any other vette parts stay pure to the vette. Interesting to see that DC has committed crimes against the viper by using the chassis for some half baked coupe and they stole the motors for pick ups.

I guess I better not remind you about the Impala SS, what was the motor in that thing, Hmmmmm CORVETTE. And I like the SS.....

I Think they should try to keep the Corvette strictly a Corvette but if survival is about sharing a few parts to cut down on cost and keep the price of the Vette in an acceptable range then so share away just dont try to duplicate it with another model. After all the vette offers more bang for the buck than any other car, how much for a Viper..

Mart

Vettelt193
01-18-05, 09:21 AM
I'd like to see a Tahoe or an Avalanche in a 'Corvette Edition'. Basically, keep them SUV's, with all the towing capacity, but do them up a bit... add Heads up display, add nicer wheels (maybe to match the vette's?), add corvette seats, and drop in a corvette engine. The point shouldn't be to make a truck into a sports car, rather, just give the Corvette owner a good rugged vehicle to haul around more people, more stuff, and be able to tow..... plus some extra power to do it with.

Her 92
01-18-05, 09:26 AM
I voted no, but when I owned my 99 Suburban I threatened to put Corvette emblems on it. It ran really well and I loved it. :w

Tom Bryant
01-18-05, 09:45 AM
I voted no because if Chevy did build one it would be a gussied up Tahoe. They could not justify the expense of a new platform to management so that would be the only option. With decked out Tahoes hitting 50k now what would they want for a Tahoe with a Corvette badge on it? Consider that they charge 20k extra for a Tahoe with GMC front end and Cadillac badges it would probably be in the 80s.

My last new Tahoe was a '99 and I'll never spend that kind of money again for a grocery getter. My wife is now driving a '05 Equinox all wheel drive that does everything the Tahoe did and most things better for 1/2 the price. Of course if you tow heavy stuff that makes a diff. I don't.

Tom

PLRX
01-18-05, 02:37 PM
In 1986 I read a Motor Trend or Car and Driver magazine with a caprice station wagon, it had the L98 and the 16" wheels. It's name was "corvette chaser" anybody have seen that mag or pictures?

http://www.geocities.com/carspecs/stock.html

MyOtherCar
01-18-05, 03:20 PM
No. I am even dissapointed that Buick produced an suv. Nothing against suvs but I am very traditional when it comes to cars in general.

This is the kind of wool that is being slipped over the consumers' eyes, not only by GM, but I am sure the rest of the manufacturers are doing similar things.

This isn't as though Buick started producing its own SUV. All that occurred was to change the front/rear clips of the Bravado, renamed it a Ranier, and sell it through the Buick dealerships. I would find it hard to believe that Buick started up a new assembly plant, heck, I'll bet they are still produced at the same plant that Olds used.

Now sharing parts is a good thing as it keeps R&D costs to a minimum, but the marketing departments must take the public as fools! And of course, we provide the manufacturers with just such an environment by purchasing these things. With the General, a Corvette is a Corvette!!, but let's face it, when you buy other products such as as SUV (Chevy Trailblazer/GMC Envoy/and now Buick Ranier) you are really just buying a generic GM vehicle. I think that is mediocracry at its worst.
As others say, this is just my $.02 worth.

hpbadger
01-18-05, 03:33 PM
This is the kind of wool that is being slipped over the consumers' eyes, not only by GM, but I am sure the rest of the manufacturers are doing similar things.

This isn't as though Buick started producing its own SUV. All that occurred was to change the front/rear clips of the Bravado, renamed it a Ranier, and sell it through the Buick dealerships. I would find it hard to believe that Buick started up a new assembly plant, heck, I'll bet they are still produced at the same plant that Olds used.

Now sharing parts is a good thing as it keeps R&D costs to a minimum, but the marketing departments must take the public as fools! And of course, we provide the manufacturers with just such an environment by purchasing these things. With the General, a Corvette is a Corvette!!, but let's face it, when you buy other products such as as SUV (Chevy Trailblazer/GMC Envoy/and now Buick Ranier) you are really just buying a generic GM vehicle. I think that is mediocracry at its worst.
As others say, this is just my $.02 worth.

Just part of the homogonized car industry......my Buick Roadmaster has a 350 but it certainly isn't a Buick 350. With govt regs and lawsuits driving up the costs it is a wonder cars like the Corvette are still produced at all. Just pray that the govt doesn't force GM to produce something really awful like a (blech!) hybrid corvette.

MyOtherCar
01-18-05, 03:53 PM
But I'll bet the foreseeable future holds the Insurance Companies putting a clamp on the hp wars that are going on, very similar to what happened in the early 70's

ProEMTPFF
01-18-05, 04:39 PM
GMC, not Chevy, Performance SUV, yes, but came equipped w/4.3L supercharged engine to AWD. Awesome vehicle and VERY fast!! In addition, GMC made a pick-up version called the Cyclone. Ditto speed stuff

Wrong.....they both were a 283 hp TURBOcharged v6. :D

MyOtherCar
01-18-05, 05:12 PM
Yep, I sit here corrected!! Not only did they come with a turbocharger but also had an air-to-water intercooler. Great power and one of the baddest on the road!!

DanHammer
01-18-05, 10:04 PM
Hope that day never comes ... SUV from corvette!!! I just hope GM is wise enough to leave the Corvette name and tradition as it stands today ... the symbol and icon for American sportscar ... just my 2 cents ... :D

But If I am in the market for an SUV ... probably get the H2 Hummer in yellow.:)

Peace to all ...:Steer :w

WhalePirot
01-19-05, 01:18 AM
Corvette is a name, under a brand name, like Cadillac, Porsche, etc.

Cayenne is a name, under a brand, also.

Caddy lost me long ago when they tried to screw a pal on an ElDo. Now, I am lost in their alphabet soup of vehicles and no-nothing salespeople.

stu
01-24-05, 01:30 AM
GMC, not Chevy, Performance SUV, yes, but came equipped w/4.3L supercharged engine to AWD. Awesome vehicle and VERY fast!! In addition, GMC made a pick-up version called the Cyclone. Ditto speed stuff

The Syclone and Typhoon were actually turbo charged. See http://www.syty.org

Christian Nilsson
01-24-05, 10:13 AM
Hmmmmm. Since I live in Sweden, and it´s a lot of snow here right now, a SUV might be practical.

Just kidding; that´s why I have a Suzuki Grand Vitara with 4WD. The vette is safely in the garage looking at the winter landscape....and looking forward to the summer season.

What´s wrong with the Trailblazer????

/Christian (with a newly imported 1996 LT4 Coupé from Long Island, NY)

Fred Hammerle
01-24-05, 10:40 AM
That's the dumbest idea I've heard since Porsche came out with the Cayenne, now being discounted heavily as they can't sell 'em for 4 times the price of the very similar VW Toureg. The 'vette is a two seat sports car and should remain so.

AdvancedAutoCC
01-24-05, 11:00 AM
I don't really see it happening. I guess if chevrolet wanted to make a suv with some more pep they could do that. However I think the corvette is an icon as far as automobiles go, and it is best left alone. Although I have seen a few vettes with lift kits and 35 inch swampers.

Oh Monster Garage built a mud rat vette or something like that. It rocked, and it was equipped with 4WD. Looked just like a vette, perhaps a late 70's :_rock


Craig

The "Slingray" build was one of my favorite builds, before the show became a parody of itself (resident midget, stupid staged fights, etc.). Granted, it was a 1973 big-block Vette that was cut up, but the Vette guy's reactions to the build were priceless!:D
Now if it's stupid you want, I can tell you a story about a 1969 L88/L89 car that would make you sick, but that's for another thread...

CAPN17
01-24-05, 11:01 AM
AWD yes/ SUV No way

speeder
01-24-05, 11:04 AM
How about if they put the C6 suspension under the SSR and changed the front to look like a C1 or C2. I think that would qualify as a Corvette SUV. :)

Vettelt193
01-24-05, 11:23 AM
That's the dumbest idea I've heard since Porsche came out with the Cayenne, now being discounted heavily as they can't sell 'em for 4 times the price of the very similar VW Toureg. The 'vette is a two seat sports car and should remain so.

Where have you seen the Cayenne discounted heavily? I haven't seen them with even 10% off sticker... That says a lot for a vehicle that can have a sticker at almost 100 grand.

You can get about the same off (percentage wise) on a new C6.... if you go back a year to the C5, you could get 20% off sticker pretty easily.

Anyone who is totally against an SUV designed for fun should also be against a ZO6 convertible.... A sports car inspired SUV may not be as good as a real sports car when it comes to performance, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't make one for day-to-day driving... just like a convertible corvette may not be as good performance wise as a coupe. does that mean they should stick a 6 cyl. engine in it, because it will never be as good as its high performance brother?

There is a cost-benefit to everything, and to some, a Corvette SUV would provide the right combo ...especially for a daily driver... to haul people and stuff, but still be a good performing vehicle :)

ROCKETBLOCK
01-24-05, 11:48 AM
I personally would not like to see a Corvette SUV. However, if the bean counters thought it would make money, they would even build a Corvette Limo!!! I wouldn't be surprise at anything in this changing automotive market.:upthumbs

rtracy
01-24-05, 12:01 PM
The answer is no. I would not buy it. The corvette body just doesn't belong on a 4 wheel drive frame. I know of a guy in Springfeild, PA that took a 70's style corvette and put it on a 4x4 frame. It looked cool but what a waste of a corvette.

SSTibet
01-24-05, 12:16 PM
I agree with JEFNLSA. Although I live in Turkey I am really fed up with seeing the SUVs being used for city commute. And I would never ever buy a SUV even it was produced by Corvette.

In my own mind Corvette would lose a lot of credit if it did SUV. Corvette is Corvette, has its own style and image, and it has to stay that way...

vetteheadracer
01-24-05, 12:19 PM
GM already did!

Hummer H2 !!

axer911
01-24-05, 01:15 PM
Anybody out there any good with PhotoChop?? I sure would like to see some pics of what this thing would look like!!:w

Hardlight
01-24-05, 01:21 PM
Nope, no, nada...absolutely no sense to the concept. GM is up to their chin in SUV's, besides one that is only 52 inches high would be too hard for the majority of the SUV market to get into. :L

C-4 Cross Fire
01-24-05, 04:55 PM
Is this the SUV you're talking about?

http://www.c4restore.com/images/c6final.jpg

Tom Bryant
01-24-05, 05:20 PM
Now that would make a great work car if the rear glass opened. :D

bossvette
01-24-05, 05:33 PM
Is this the SUV you're talking about?

http://www.c4restore.com/images/c6final.jpg

Don't let my wife see this, my Sams club bill is big enough when we take the C5 it would triple with this one :L

nyernga
01-24-05, 05:41 PM
A corvette SUV would be about as unnatural as dating your sister. Or watching a fish swim sideways. Somethings are better off left alone. :)


thats my .02

Len:w

TheAnarkist
01-24-05, 05:59 PM
No way!!! nuff said. :beer

dgcarbu
01-24-05, 09:12 PM
No! No! No!

dgcarbu
01-24-05, 09:22 PM
NO!!!:ugh

PLRX
01-24-05, 10:40 PM
Among all these Vettes owners with families/children that dislike the idea of a "Corvette SUV", If GM would come with it and in it is the 427 you would trade-in your tahoes, navigators, durangos, magnums...

AND YOU WILL BE HAPPY

...I would!! :Steer

WONKABOY
01-24-05, 10:59 PM
IF A CORVETTE EVER BRANCHED OFF TO A TRUCK IT WOULD LOSE IT'S IDENTITY:confused AND IT WOULD NEVER BE THE SAME OWNING A CORVETTE!:cry

RICK FROM BPT, CT

Will
01-24-05, 11:23 PM
To put it lightly.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:r
NO! :r NEVER! :r
GOOD GOD OF ALL THING SACRED DONT LET THEM DO IT!

It would be a black sheep, a cancer, a burden and most of all a source of embarrassment that Corvette haters could use.

EttevroC
01-25-05, 12:13 AM
Here are a few pictures of the original SUV Corvette at the 1984 World of Wheels, at the Kansas City Convention Center.

:_rock Like fersure man!

http://hometown.aol.com/jtreml/images/corvette%20monster%2001.jpg

http://hometown.aol.com/jtreml/images/corvette%20monster%2002.jpg

http://hometown.aol.com/jtreml/images/corvette%20monster%2003.jpg

http://hometown.aol.com/jtreml/images/corvette%20monster%2004.jpg

http://hometown.aol.com/jtreml/images/corvette%20monster%2005.jpg

http://hometown.aol.com/jtreml/images/corvette%20monster%2006.jpg

Dave C. '04 Z06
01-25-05, 08:19 AM
Here are a few pictures of the original SUV Corvette at the 1984 World of Wheels, at the Kansas City Convention Center.

:_rock Like fersure man!
http://hometown.aol.com/jtreml/images/corvette%20monster%2005.jpg

http://hometown.aol.com/jtreml/images/corvette%20monster%2006.jpg

Well, I can see potential for getting to work faster through rush hour traffic with that thing......... :)

-Dave C. '04 Z06

PLRX
01-25-05, 09:23 AM
http://www.lilligren.com/Redneck/redneck_corvette.jpg

Here is the "farmer" version

kingman
01-25-05, 10:01 AM
Hi

There is a real purpose for SUV's but less then 5% use it for the purpose it was intended for.

If you live in the outbacks or snow country or even drive it on the beach it's neat. But to drive it around town says something about yourself as a car person.

With big families a minivan is safer by far, more economical and holds more stuff, so the reason for a SUV has nothing in common with a minivan.

So the answer must be a macho one unless you use it for some kind of business!
The SUV is only a word that you can tell somebody what you have and it sounds kool.

The Lexus RX330 Suv is a car that is jacked up period. Four wheel drive or awd is now available on most better priced vehicles. A Yugo has more trunck room then a LexusRX330 but not as dependible.

A station wagon, like the Mercedes, BMW or Volvo would suit most people and afford more safety and the ability to stop a lot faster, but it's more expensive, so the cheaper way to go is a cheap SUV.

Now if we are talking about the Range Rover l stand corrected (new model), or the Jeep but the rest are wanabees.

Well anyway that is why the automobile industry is still standing is because of the SUV, because it's the most profitable whatever that they make and people just cannot get enough of them.

Alan

EttevroC
01-25-05, 10:45 AM
http://www.lilligren.com/Redneck/redneck_corvette.jpg

Here is the "farmer" version

Yeehaw, now dat is perdy!:L

kingman
01-25-05, 10:50 AM
The only thing missing is the plow and the elevator to get into the cockpit.

Alan

EttevroC
01-25-05, 11:07 AM
Hi

There is a real purpose for SUV's but less then 5% use it for the purpose it was intended for.

If you live in the outbacks or snow country or even drive it on the beach it's neat. But to drive it around town says something about yourself as a car person.

With big families a minivan is safer by far, more economical and holds more stuff, so the reason for a SUV has nothing in common with a minivan.

So the answer must be a macho one unless you use it for some kind of business!
The SUV is only a word that you can tell somebody what you have and it sounds kool.

The Lexus RX330 Suv is a car that is jacked up period. Four wheel drive or awd is now available on most better priced vehicles. A Yugo has more trunck room then a LexusRX330 but not as dependible.

A station wagon, like the Mercedes, BMW or Volvo would suit most people and afford more safety and the ability to stop a lot faster, but it's more expensive, so the cheaper way to go is a cheap SUV.

Now if we are talking about the Range Rover l stand corrected (new model), or the Jeep but the rest are wanabees.

Well anyway that is why the automobile industry is still standing is because of the SUV, because it's the most profitable whatever that they make and people just cannot get enough of them.

Alan

Just to play the devils advocate, and I mean no personal offence to you Alan, the same reasoning can be said of our beloved Corvettes.

I’m pretty sure that less than 5% of Vettes are used @ 100% of their performance abilities, and everyone has heard the jokes about Vettes being compensation for their owner’s, ahem, short comings.

Just like SUV owners, we purchased our Vettes for many different reasons, but it all comes down to the most influential reason of all, an Emotional one.

kingman
01-25-05, 01:07 PM
That's why we live in America, all of us have our own opinions and quirks!

At least we can cry about it without getting our hands chopped off.

Alan

EttevroC
01-25-05, 01:39 PM
Here here! :pat

like2drive
01-25-05, 08:44 PM
Couple of reasons I wouldn't think this would be a good idea.:

1. Canabalizing the brand name. When someone mentions "Corvette" , do you think of rich soccer moms, or a lean, mean, beautiful, sleek sports car? Cadillac, Lincoln has done it, yes, but isn't "Corvette" a niche in itself? If you're going to the SUV route, why now make a fart can version, Sedan? why...just like Thunderbird did! Call the sedan a "Cormaro" even. Nah, Carlisle would never be the same.

2. Now that Ford has that $140000 monster on the scene, it could appear that GM is wanting out of this race, and is "milking the cow" which is marketing-speak for getting what you can out of it & leave this sports car market. Isn't there a lot of folks that buy Corvettes for Investments? What'd they think? wouldn't a conventional auto w/ "Corvette" confuse/dilute the image? Why waste a great history on a glorified "Dummermobile"?
Anyways, thanks for letting me have my $.02 worth, and why fix a great product that isn't broke? :w Jim

84vetteboy
01-26-05, 04:31 PM
GMC, not Chevy, Performance SUV, yes, but came equipped w/4.3L supercharged engine to AWD. Awesome vehicle and VERY fast!! In addition, GMC made a pick-up version called the Cyclone. Ditto speed stuff

Both of you are wrong on the powerplant it was a 4.3l That you are correct on but It was not supercharged It was turboed and intercooled and only came with an automatic. same with the syclone just had to correct that I used to have a syclone until it was stolen.

MyOtherCar
01-27-05, 12:00 AM
Both of you are wrong on the powerplant it was a 4.3l That you are correct on but It was not supercharged It was turboed and intercooled and only came with an automatic. same with the syclone just had to correct that I used to have a syclone until it was stolen.

Yep, that is what we had agreed, it was a 4.3L turbo w/intercooler

jrose7004
02-02-05, 08:15 PM
http://www.lilligren.com/Redneck/redneck_corvette.jpg

Here is the "farmer" versionThats it, say no more!;LOL

PLRX
02-07-05, 12:59 AM
Check these picts out
:eyerole
http://www.thebeast.uk.com/Other/vettelimo/i-4_B_L.jpghttp://www.thebeast.uk.com/Other/vettelimo/i-2_B_L.jpg