Bob Lutz on C6

[Rob]

In the October 15, 2001 AutoWeek magazine, on page 5 is an article about a memo that GM Product Vice Chairman, Bob Lutz wrote to several people within GM entitled "Strongly Held Beliefs".

The AutoWeek article states:

Lutz's influence, say insiders has already amended the look of the next Corvette (due in 2004 as a 2005 model) ....
A GM engineer told us Lutz has "just now signed off on the (the new Corvette) He didn't like it at first but did sign off on it (with changes). It was a little bit of a struggle, but not too bad. I've seen worse."

[Hib Halverson]

One of Lutz's more interesting "beliefs"?

Read this:
[QUOTE]
Most customers want a vehicle of new, fresh exciting appearance, with a
rich, value-transmitting interior. They want a great powertrain, superb
dynamics, and, obviously, safety and quality. But the thought that huge
advances in voice-recognition, or screen-technology, or multi-function
displays or ever-trickier consoles, or embroidered floormats, etc., etc.
will somehow override other deficiencies (or, worse yet, "averageness")
is wrong. What focus groups say they would "really like in their next
car" is not reliable, because they are, in the research, not really
paying for it. ("Talking car" and all-digital instrument panels received
high "want" ratings in their day.) The vehicles that are succeeding
today (Honda, Toyota, Audi, VW) are not highly-contented, or if they
are, they charge for the option packs. A "base" Camry is really base!
[QUOTE]

A-f***ing-men, Bob!!

Lutz was put in by Rich Wagoner as a GM Vice Chairman and Wagoner is totally behind him.

It just might be that GM cars with the character of some of the recent stuff Chrysler has put on the road, but with far better quality and GM's excellent powertrains are a few years off.

Go Bob, go!!!

[Viper 10]

There isn't a better car guy in the business than Bob Lutz. Anything that comes from him, you can take to the bank. He is a real diamond in the rough, in a world full of bean counters and people trying to justify their jobs with cars like the Aztec.

I am a big fan of Bob's (since he's the guy that developed the idea for the Viper on a restaurant napkin).

Brad

[Hib Halverson]

I take Lutz with cautious optimism. I like what he says, but I want to see if and how he applies that to GM vehicles.

While he did create the idea for the Viper, the excecution of that idea left a lot to be desired, ie: it's a very powerful car that's gained lots of attention for Chrysler but is also low-tech, lacks refinement, lacks quality and has been sold in quantities that are just a fraction of Corvette production.

[Viper 10]

Originally posted by Hib Halverson
I take Lutz with cautious optimism. I like what he says, but I want to see if and how he applies that to GM vehicles.

While he did create the idea for the Viper, the excecution of that idea left a lot to be desired, ie: it's a very powerful car that's gained lots of attention for Chrysler but is also low-tech, lacks refinement, lacks quality and has been sold in quantities that are just a fraction of Corvette production.

Hib:

Nothing personal, but did you get this comment from the chapter in the Corvette manual on "how to criticize the Vipers when you have nothing to show"? You guys need to let it go, and realize that the Viper was never developed to compete with Corvettes (and vice versa). I suppose that you think similarly of the Prowler, 300M and the PT Cruiser? If nothing else respect the Viper for what it is, which is very different from the current Corvettes.

FYI, Bob Lutz is one of the most widely respected car people in the entire automotive industry. If I were you I would bite my tongue when talking about GM's tattered history of mediocre cars, and their fresh line up of cars like the Aztec, the stunning new Avalanche and the Suburban (which has not has a significant engineering change in 20 years). Let's not forget today's memorable car models like the Impala, Malibu, Monte Carlo, Prism, Cavalier, La Sabre, Century, Regal and the Venture. GM has a lot to brag about...

Lutz knows how to connect a company and a car's heritage to current models. Hell, before Lutz came into the picture, all that Chrysler was known for was bankruptcy and the K-Car. He was solely responsible for resurrecting Chrysler's heritage and brand identity. He's also the man responsible for Chrysler's success and re-entry into racing (from Le Mans to NASCAR).

You certainly can't give Bob Eaton any credit for Chrysler's success for their turn-around. He's the a$$hole that sold out the company to the Germans at Daimler. Since then, they have done nothing but strip the company of all of it's assets, drive all of their design and engineering talent out and cancelled every significant project they can.

You should get on your knees and thank God that Lutz is on the GM team. He'll finally bring some clarity to GM's lack of direction and mediocrity. I guarantee that he'll bring the Corvette back to the dominant stature in the performance world, where it belongs.

Of course, that's JMO.

Brad

[jbonifas]

I may not be on the same page here, but I recently saw a few pics of the new Cadillac is some mag. It was kind of stelthy, is this for real and/or is this what the C6 may come to look like?
JCB

[Edmond]

jbonifas,
Are you talking about that Caddy that has like a 7.5 liter displacement and will pump out 700+ horses? I saw that too and that really opened my eyes. What opened my eyes more was the expected $275,000 price tag.

Getting back to the subject; I don't think Hib was trying to be so critical of the Viper. Maybe he could've refrased what he said into a nicer way. But, if you look at all the reviews, the Corvette is a superior OVERALL vehicle to the Viper. And one would have to think that Chrysler creates "artificial demand" by producing so few of those vehicles. How many Vipers do they make a year? Certainly not enough; I think they should make more available instead of making so few and keeping prices high.

I think that a lot of Viper questions will be answered in 2003 when their new generation comes out. But when all the car magazines do the test of the worlds best sports cars, it's always the European boys' cars. You have to understand that there is so much pride in every GM and Corvette person to know that the Corvette is included in those tests. They ranked the Z06 as the 4th best sports car in the world. They did tests like top speed, slalom, skid pad and 0-100-0.

I think I'm done rambling.

[Viper 10]

Originally posted by BullWinkle
jbonifas,
Are you talking about that Caddy that has like a 7.5 liter displacement and will pump out 700+ horses? I saw that too and that really opened my eyes. What opened my eyes more was the expected $275,000 price tag.

Getting back to the subject; I don't think Hib was trying to be so critical of the Viper. Maybe he could've refrased what he said into a nicer way. But, if you look at all the reviews, the Corvette is a superior OVERALL vehicle to the Viper. And one would have to think that Chrysler creates "artificial demand" by producing so few of those vehicles. How many Vipers do they make a year? Certainly not enough; I think they should make more available instead of making so few and keeping prices high.

I think that a lot of Viper questions will be answered in 2003 when their new generation comes out. But when all the car magazines do the test of the worlds best sports cars, it's always the European boys' cars. You have to understand that there is so much pride in every GM and Corvette person to know that the Corvette is included in those tests. They ranked the Z06 as the 4th best sports car in the world. They did tests like top speed, slalom, skid pad and 0-100-0.

I think I'm done rambling.

Bullwinkle:

I guess you haven't seen some of my previous posts on this subject. First off, if you are looking for approval from a car mag, then so be it. But tell me this, how can the Viper beat the Z06 in every single category (including braking since the addition of ABS) and lose the title as best sports car?

Look at the latest article in GM High-Tech Performance (dated January 2002, Volume 8 No.1) and you will see the true numbers. They basically frame the article around the statement "Proving once again that you should never bring a knife to a gun fight". The Z06 lost in every category. If a sports car is measured on the amenities like cup holders, cruise control, climate control, vanity mirrors and the number of people that it can seat, then Vettes deserve to be compared to M3 BMW (which I think is ridiculous). The last time that I looked,the definition sports car meant bottom line performance and not how many Nordstrom's shopping bags you could haul in the trunk.

If the Corvette is the "superior sports car" that you claim, then why are 57% of the owners women? I'm am not trying to be sexist, but that's the truth. Women do not traditionally buy "sports cars". GM builds 35,000+ Corvettes a year and DC builds 1,100 to 1,400 Vipers a year. How do you compare these two cars as being on the same playing field?

Tell me why hasn't a single car magazine performance tested the Viper since the addition of ABS (in '00 models)? Do you think that it might be because the stock Viper might kick the crap out of competitors like Corvette, Porsche TT's, Aston Martin Vantage's, Acura NSX's and Ferrari's (who by the way pay huge amounts of money to these rags in advertising dollars)? I'm not talking about testing tuner cars that are made to last 2,000 miles between engine rebuilds, and can't do anything but 1/4 mile and dyno runs.

I will say that the Corvette is a much easier car to drive, and is very forgiving at the extreme ends of it's performance curves. The Viper does demand much more driver input and attention.

What other car in the world gives you 490 ft-lbs. of torque from 450 rpm idle to 5,300 rpm's? Torque is what separates the Viper from the other high performance cars, which makes the car more difficult to drive and reduces your margin for error (when making mistakes). Bone stock Vipers on a drag strip will light up the tires from 1st gear, and won't hook up until they get into 3rd gear. Traction is difficult when you have this much torque. I have seen 1/4 mile times range from 13.0 to 11.58 in stock Vipers, and it has everything to do with driver skill (and not the car's performance capabilities).

The same goes for lateral acceleration. How many cars out there do you know that can hold 1.03 g's on stock street tires? Once again driver skill is very important, because the Viper doesn't behave like a Corvette or Porsche with traction control.

As far as your question about the number of cars produced (and your artificial market), once again I think you missed the purpose of the Viper completely. The Viper is a marquee vehicle for Daimler-Chrysler. Dodge Vipers alone actually lose money for every vehicle produced. They are hand made to order (which tells you why they produce so few). The truth of the matter, the image that Vipers bring to DC, sell hundreds of thousands of Neons, Intrepids, Sebrings, PT Cruisers, and Stratus' (and even minivans). The next time you look at one of these vehicles, look at their front and rear grills. What you will see on all of them have design accents from the Viper. When was the last time you saw GM market other cars that are linked to the Corvette?

Case in point, in the recent recession that we are currently experiencing, the sales in Prowlers has dropped significantly, while sales on PT Cruisers has had a moderate drop in overall sales. The Viper has not had any measurable drop in demand. What does that say about your "artificial market"?

Your statement about overall quality is left to anyone's personal opinion (at best). Too many Corvette owners are measuring the Viper based on the quality issues that the Viper had in the first two years of production. I would put the Viper's reliability right there with that of Porsche, BMW and Corvette's (of which many of my friends own). I'm not trying to start any flame war or heated discussion on whose **** is bigger, better or faster.

Let's just agree that these are two cars, even though they are in the same category, are built for two very different purposes.

My apologies for being so long on this post. I hope that I have clarified some of the issues that have come up.

Brad

[mxdout165]

Let's just agree that these are two cars, even though they are in the same category, are built for two very different purposes.

Well said. I agree with much in this discussion. Most importantly of all though, is that I agree that the Viper and the Vette are two entirely different sports cars.

Vette = affordable, drivable by average joe performance.

Viper = raw power, must be "driven," pure sports car.

Vette = vacation cruising, grocery getting, high class performance.

Viper = all out street racer, as far as I'm concerned. lol

Why do we always have to compare the two and say, "My car's better than your car." Why can't we just appreciate each as a beautiful, unique, addition to the United States awesome automotive history that has brought such cars as: Shelby Cobra Daytona, '71 Cuda w/426hemi. '66 AC Cobra w/427, '69 Corvette ZL-1, 429 Mustang Mach1, '66 GTO and '69 GTO Judge. You all know how big the list is.

Just my 1-3/4 cents worth. :D

T Jay...and boy would I like to have some of the cars on that list. I was born in the wrong decade. But then again, the 80's did create the Buick GNX, and technically, the ZR-1, to name a few. :)

[danl72]

I agree with mxdout165. These two cars are diferent cars. They are not made to be the same type of cars or to compete with each other.
One thing though I wanted to say to Viper 10 is that you have to remember the Viper is a V10 and the vette is a V8. That is also how they are different and I am not comparing the two. You said the Viper out performed the Vette, which it did, I am not aruging with that. If these two cars were to compete with each other, how do you think the Vette would match up vs. the Viper if the Vette had a v10 as well. I think it would be a lot closer match. What do you think? I'm only saying this IF they were to compete with each other.

[Edmond]

Well I'm going by what the car magazine says because I will never be able to drive a $275,000 Lamborghini to compare. Answer this question: why didn't they include the Viper?

You see, the year now is almost 2002 and you would expect that a $50,000+ car would have creature comforts. That would be the equivlent of buying a $200,000 house that doesn't have central air conditioning, it's stupid.

Did you know that there are professional sports organizations for women now? You're making it sound like it's an embarassment for women to drive Corvette's.

I felt like your post was a personal attack on me. Was it?

Competition is human nature.

[Viper 10]

Bullwinkle:

It was not a personal attack on you or anyone else. I was just addressing your points with your words. I was trying to shed some light with facts about the Viper and DC.

Your comment about women's racing organizations has nothing to do with my reply. Of all of the driving schools and track events that I have attended (which is pretty regularly), women and women in Corvettes are very rare. In fact I will say that women make up about 1 or 2 percent of people attending these events. I can also say that the women who drive Corvettes that I know in Southern Cal Corvette Clubs are not racer types (that doesn't mean that they don't exist).

By the way, come to Manhattan Beach and you will see $1 to $5 million homes without air conditioning. I don't understand your comment about amenities. Take a look at the McLaren F1 and see what kind of amenities it has. I have fortunate enough to have driven Lambo's Porsche Turbo's and Ferrari's and I must say that your statement doesn't hold true to those cars either. Creature comforts and amenities are rare, but technology to keep these exotics stable and drivable at the extreme ends of the performance curves is plentiful.

Your magazine comment is a little odd. When did a magazine ever compare a Diablo to a Corvette? I was alluding to sports car and high performance car shootouts in general. By the way, the Viper can more than hold its own against a Diablo.

Well I guess you answered my question about how much truth and credibility you put into car rags. Sorry to burst your bubble, but the truth is that they are high paid advertising for manufacturers like GM, Porsche, Lexus and BMW. Very high priced propaganda. Have fun debating with the BMW M3 owners about why the Vette got shafted (and the Viper wasn't even invited).

You can take this any way that you like, but I have nothing against you personally. I was also trying to give you something to reply to, to make this discussion interesting.

Sorry that you took it personally. If I did choose to attack you, you can ask our moderator Ken about what happens (because civility gets thrown out of the window). Debate is fun as long as it doesn't cross over into the personal realm.

Brad

[mxdout165]

Brad,

I know this is a little off topic, but I was just curious as to how, I think it was 1000hp, Viper is coming along. I looked a little for the original link, but my computer is acting up and shutdown on me before I could find it. I would really like to see that page again.

T Jay

[Viper 10]

Originally posted by mxdout165
Brad,

I know this is a little off topic, but I was just curious as to how, I think it was 1000hp, Viper is coming along. I looked a little for the original link, but my computer is acting up and shutdown on me before I could find it. I would really like to see that page again.

T Jay

T:

I am no longer working with the people at Grant's Performance in the development of their twin turbo Viper. I understand that they have basically twin turbocharged the TNT engine (that the customer had brought to them to fix), and added new intake and exhaust. I don't think that it will be producing the numbers that they originally planned (which was 1,500 HP).

I broke off from them because of some major philisophical differences. In the meantime, I am in the process of starting our own exotic tuning effort that will concentrate on chassis/suspension tuning, traction control systems, and other engineering that will make our cars much safer, drivable and more reliable than other tuner cars on the market today. We will begin by shipping carbon fiber body panels and aerodynamics by the end of this year or first quarter next year. The one thing that our vehicles will not be are 1/4 mile and dyno queen cars (as most tuner cars are today).

There are plans down the road to develop intercooled forced induction systems that are engineered for street and road racing applications (versus drag strip applications).

Thanks for asking, and sorry that I cannot give you more details on the twin turbo Viper.

Have a great day.

Brad

[mxdout165]

That's okay about the TT Viper, I was just curious anyways. Seeing the pic of your Viper just reminded me of it. Sounds like you've got your hands full with the new biz. Good luck with that. I'll have to find my mag at home with the TT F50 and TT Testerossa, I'm all worked up about turbo's again, lol.

T Jay

[Viper 10]

T:

Just remember that with all of the power that a TT or a blower can add to your engine, it doesn't mean a thing if the car's chassis and suspension can't handle it. You pretty much reduce your car to a straight liner that can barely keep itself on the track.

The other thing that you need to remember is that if you build engines that approach of exceed 1,000 HP, that the durability of the engine is reduced dramatically. I have heard that those cars need to be completely rebuilt every 2,000 miles. To me that seems like a waste of someone's money (no matter how much you have).

That's the reason why we think that there is room for our approach to tuning exotics. We'll keep you posted on how we are progressing.

Take care and be safe.

Brad

[Hib Halverson]

Nothing personal, but did you get this comment from the chapter in the Corvette manual on "how to criticize the Vipers when you have nothing to show"? You guys need to let it go, and realize that the Viper was never developed to compete with Corvettes (and vice versa). I suppose that you think similarly of the Prowler, 300M and the PT Cruiser? If nothing else respect the Viper for what it is, which is very different from the current Corvettes.

(giggle)
"Nothing personal?"
Ok.
However, I must offer this observation: so often on I'net forums, I read those words when
people mean exactly the opposite. They get "personal" when they have a weak argument or don't like being disagreed with, but say "nothing" personal presumably to somehow lessen the impact or release themselves from some unknown guilt. This is not directed at you personally, but is simply a general observation about I'net forum "society." ;)

The Viper concept was created to promote Chrysler as a manufacturer capable of putting a world-class performance sports car on the road and to make the point that Corvette is not the only American sports car. In those senses, the Viper was intended to compete *directly* with Corvette and was reasonably successful in achieving that goal. The product development of that concept, the results of which we see in the Dodge Viper, is certainly different than the Corvette in some ways but similar in others.

As for the Prowler, 300M, and the PT, well---I don't much care for the Prowler and the PT, but there are people who do and that's fine. I appreciate the process by which Chrysler responded to what it believed were markets for vehicles such as those. I'll add, however, that neither are proving to be products/concepts with sustained high demand. Not many Prowlers were sold and it appears the Chrysler may have overestimated demand for the PT. As for the 300M? Now there's a product with some longevity. If it had a little better performance and quality, it'd be a homerun.


He's also the man responsible for Chrysler's success and re-entry into racing (from Le Mans to NASCAR).

I'll buy the part about road racing. Lutz certainly placed the right bets, there. As for NASCAR? Chrysler needs to perform better before I and many others will agree it has succeeded. I'm not saying it won't, but I am saying it's not there, yet. So far, Ray Evernham has shown he's bitten off more than he can chew.

FYI, Bob Lutz is one of the most widely respected car people in the entire automotive industry.

I love it when people say "for your information".
I'd say Bob Lutz *is* the most respected car guy in the industry today but at Chrysler he was only one of several with their guiding hand on the Viper project.

If I were you I would bite my tongue when talking about GM's tattered history of mediocre cars, and their fresh line up of cars like the Aztec, the stunning new Avalanche and the Suburban (which has not has a significant engineering change in 20 years).

Ok.
Let me get this straight: you meant nothing personal, I needed to be informed and now I need to bite my tongue.
(ouch)
B, b, butt...(hard to talk with my tongue hurting) you are the one bringing up the issue. Of course you are zeroing in on some of GM's biggest recent failures, the butt-ugly Aztec and it's near-as-ugly but more overweight cousin, the Avalanche. But the statement that the Suburban hasn't had a significant engineering change in 20-years clearly demonstrates your ignorance. What's platform that's lacked progressive engineering under an, admittedly, leading-edge exterior? Try Chrysler's full-sized trucks---including the "new" one.

No doubt, GM's made mistakes in the last generation and that has cost its once dominating market-share. The other side of that coin is Chrysler, which as you point out, was virtually destroyed by Eaton's sale of it to the Germans. American consumers buying Chryslers get cars that look great---stunning, even---but, with the exception of the Viper, are mediocre performers, have quality that sucks and a dealer network that has a hard time providing good service. Heck, for a time, after Chrysler's financial arm ran out of money this summer, those dealers couldn't even provide dealer financing to sell the cars---that would subsequently break-down and provide their service departments with work.

I have a friend who owns a PT. He loves the look and ambience presented by the car, but he hates the quality. Among other problems, shortly after he bought it, the engine computer failed such that the car had to be flat-bedded to the dealer for warranty repair. There it sat there for weeks with the parts people telling my friend Chrysler had no replacement computers available--anywhere. Finally, because of his complaints, the dealer found a wrecked PT in a salvage yard (lucky find, I'd say considering the product's newness) and pirated its computer to put in this guy's sidelined car. Amazing.

I talk to Viper owners at shows, occasionally. Some have told me they love the car's mystique, style and performance but they are irritated at it's poor ergonomics and abysmal quality. One Viper owner I met, who is also a pretty knowledgeable DIY service tech., gave me a walk around of the car and pointed out a number of components used by Chrysler on low-end models that were adapted to use in the Viper...a K-car switch, here; a Neon component there, etc. He also told me there are quality issues with the V10s in those cars. I've heard from others who've worked on the engines that Chrysler doesn't have very good block machining processes. It uses different thickness main bearing shells in the same engine to compensate for poorly finished main saddles. Sheesh. If that happened at GM Powertrain, the engineers responsible would be looking for work---at Chrysler. :)

The Viper, like the 300M and other Chrysler exterior-design standouts, cuts a stunningly attractive and seductive profile. It's reasonably light, the newer units handle extremely well and it's got an extraordinary amount of power but, its chassis construction methods are only a few steps beyond those for a kit car, it's got awful quality, it's uncomfortable, until recently it lacked ABS, it's engines are inconsistent in quality and performance--some Chrysler alum. V10s run hard others need a lot of tuner help and blueprinting (ie: finish the job Chrysler couldn't)-- to get them to run well.

So now we come back to one of the core issues here---does the Viper compete against the Corvette?

Sure it does, not directly on all fronts, but it does compete in concept and mystique, two of the key attributes that make great cars. Anyone who says it does not is really just making up an excuse that diverts attention from the fact that the only places the Viper has convincing advantages over Corvette is in its brute horsepower and slutty, whips-and-chains look. After that, Corvette has better quality, better ergonomics, a more efficient powertrain, better value and is built in greater numbers.

Oh yeah---Corvette's been around for almost half a century. The Viper? Not even ten years.

[Viper 10]

Hib Baby:

Sorry that I have not replied to your wonderful post, but I have been out with a sinus infection. Being an internet writer and automotive expert, you obviously know more that everyone around here and the rest of the Corvette and GM world. You also seem to think that you know more about the Viper than anyone else. The way that you present things, doesn't leave much for discussion.

We can go back in the history of these companies and spout off everything about GM's and Chrysler's successes and failures (until the cows come home). The reality is that no one will win, because it's a matter of opinion.

At this point, I don't think that there is anything productive that could come out of addressing each of your points and how you have grammatically worded something to mean smething else (with any subliminal meanings hidden behind them).

You seem to be a Chevy and Corvette fanatic, and that's fine. But there are a couple things that you cannot deny; and that is the Team Viper kicked the living crap out of the Goodwrench Team (and everyone else in the GTS Class) for 2 3/4 seasons on the Le Mans and ALMS circuits. The only way that GM could even be competitive was to come in with a bored and stroked version of their engine (that is not even offered as a production displacement),, and cry and stomp their feet until the regulating bodies penalized the Vipers right out of the series. For the firsttime in history, an American car company brought home 3 consequetive Le Mans, Daytona and Sebring victories. Healthy competition makes everyone better, but this was not an example of it.

You also cannot deny that Chrysler (until the recent unfriendly takover by Daimler) had come a very long way from bankruptcy, government bailout and the freaking POS K-Car; to being a formidible competitor on many car fronts (including the high performance car market). I don't care if you like them or not, but put credit where it's due (and by the way back to the subject, Bob Lutz had a large role in Chrysler's recovery).

I commend the Goodwrench Team for it's run over the last season, and I love the fact that an American car is on the podium. From the gist of your replies and comments, you seem to have no respect for ANY car that doesn't wear a GM badge, or anyone else who is not a GM fanatic. Your commentary and attitude gives me a bad taste about being a Corvette owner. I absolutely love Corvettes (as well as Ferrari's, Porsche's, Aston Martin's and other high performance exotics) because I am a car enthusiast.

I'm going to end by saying let's just agree to disagree, and leave it at that.

Brad

Ps: Ken, if you and the other moderators consider this an personal attack on Hib baby (or I have ventured beyond the realm of political correctness of CAC), just blow my post away.

[Ken]

I just don't see the point of all this.

Mine's...

Your's...

I've...

You've...

:eyerole

[Rob]

The point is that it's basically healthy discussion and a disagreement of opinions. I don't see personal attacking going on...yet.

However, with that said, there is one thing I do need to chime in on and that is :

But there are a couple things that you cannot deny; and that is the Team Viper kicked the living crap out of the Goodwrench Team (and everyone else in the GTS Class) for 2 3/4 seasons on the Le Mans and ALMS circuits.


Brad....I'm not sure I can agree with that statement. The C5-R was no contest to the Viper when it first started racing because the car was brand new, they didn't have the experience of racing behind them like the Viper team did and they didn't have the displacement. Each year the C5-R got better and better and although they didn't win over the Vipers until the (correct me if I'm wrong) last race, before Chrylser pulled the plug on the Viper's racing campaign. They did hold their own against the Vipers.
I wouldn't exactly call that "kicking the living crap out of the Goodwrench team". Just my opinion...

[Tom Bryant]

When Corvette finished first overall at Daytone it wasn't because Chrysler pulled the plug on Viper racing or that GM whined to get rule changes that held back the Vipers. Not only did Team Corvette outperform the Vipers but they outperformed everyone else too. Even the prototypes.

Tom

[Edmond]

Why is GM so hush hush about the Corvette while Dodge is releasing specs on a car that is more than a year away?

Is GM always holding back in the attempt to surprise people or what?

[Viper 10]

Originally posted by Rob
The point is that it's basically healthy discussion and a disagreement of opinions. I don't see personal attacking going on...yet.

However, with that said, there is one thing I do need to chime in on and that is :


Brad....I'm not sure I can agree with that statement. The C5-R was no contest to the Viper when it first started racing because the car was brand new, they didn't have the experience of racing behind them like the Viper team did and they didn't have the displacement. Each year the C5-R got better and better and although they didn't win over the Vipers until the (correct me if I'm wrong) last race, before Chrylser pulled the plug on the Viper's racing campaign. They did hold their own against the Vipers.
I wouldn't exactly call that "kicking the living crap out of the Goodwrench team". Just my opinion...

Rob:

You are correct about the learning curve for the C5-R team (by the way they had excellant drivers that knew Le Mans).

The points that I was making without going into too much detail was that the Corvette started racing with their factory configured displacement and could not be even closely competitive (meaning within striking distance of a podium finish). They also had some real problems with brakes. What they did throughout the first season was to protest and complain about the Viper's dominance. The next season, they ran a 427 that is not even offered on factory cars (which is essentially a bored and stroked 350 LT-6). At one point there was a requirement that all of the GT cars run an engine configuration that is offered on a factory vehicle, and the 427 is not offered anywhere in the GM stable (including the C5). The result of their continuous protests resulted in twice reducing the intake (to half of the size of a stock factory Viper), dramatic reduction in tire sizes and 3 different weight penalties. By the way(as a side note) Trans Am Racing Series has banned Vipers from running a V-10. Archer is running a V-8 in his Snake.

Any way that you look at it, the playing field was evened in interestin way. Rather than refining and improving their program, GM resorted to having to lower the bar. Don't believe for a minute, that Dodge pulled out of GTS racing because of the moderate success of the Goodwrench Team. What happened is that Oreca's charter was diverted to running the Chrysler LMP team with all of the drivers and crew from their Viper team. Dodge had no other team to run the GTS effort.

I hope that this fills in some of the gaps in my statements.

Have a good day.

Brad

PS: The Vipers not only won 3 consequetive Le Mans Daytonas and Sebrings, but they did them all 1-2-3.

[Ken]

I guess my point earlier was that this subject, be it Corvette vs. Viper, or Corvette vs. Saleen (Mustang? :L), or Vette vs. whatever, has no end, nor will it ever have an end. Which I guess, is good. :gap

This is from the "Front Lines" in the January 2002 issue of Vette Magazine (http://www.vetteweb.com):
THREE-WAY TRAFFIC
vis-a-vis THE SALEEN S7.R
(Editors note: The following letter was e-mailed by Vincent L. Jacovetty to Team Saleen and Cc'd to Vette Magazine. The response was e-mailed from Team Saleen to Mr. Jacovetty and again Cc'd to Vette. We, of course, have added our two cents worth.)

Dear Mr. Saleen,

Why dont you put the S7-R in the class it belongs? Maybe it is because you know you will get your A** handed to you. So you have managed to twice beat a car, based on a $55,000 production car, with a car that will cost three to four times as much--if you ever actually produce one for the street. Quite a feat!

Sincerly,
Vincent L. Jacovetty

Mr. Jacovetty;

Thank you for your message. If I may respond on behalf of Mr. Saleen as he has not returned from the latest race at Laguna Seca, we do consider our wins a great feat as the GM Corvette team has been working quite hard for the last three years and spent tens of millions of dollars to accomplish their wins. But I am afraid your perception of the vehicle campaigned by GM as a Corvette is not exactly manufacrured for $55,000, or anything close to that number.

As I am sure Mr. Fehan will attest, as he did so at a press conference at Le Mans, their vehicles (Editor's note: "Mr. Fehan" is Doug Fehan of GM Racing. "Their vehicles" references the factory-backed, Pratt & Miller-engineered and constructed C5-Rs) cost millions of dollars to build and test and that, in fact, Saleen has manufactured more S7 street and race versions than GM has produced of their cars.

We are proud of the accomplishments of the S7 customer teams that have campaigned the cars this year and, we at Saleen feel that GM certainly deserves their championship this year. They have brought not only a great race car, but a very dass act to the American Le Mans Series. We can only hope that we can attain such success some day with our limited resources.

Liz Summar
Director, Team Saleen
Irvine, California

Hey, this is getting interesting!

There are a couple facts that Ms. Summar chooses to overlook in this matter. First and foremost, the GTS class in the American Le Mans Series is for race cars based on road-going production automobiles. To date (to the best of our knowledge), there are no road-going production Saleen S7s. One street-equipped S7 has been seen on public display, we have yet to see two or more street versions together, at the same time and place, and as far as we know, there has not yet been a single S7 road test or driving impression in any major or specialty or niche automotive publications. What are the folks at Saleen afraid of? At this time, a year after the S7 was introduced with great fanfare during the Pebble Beach Concours d'Elegance and Monterey historical races, it is not a production car--unless you count building a handful of race cars as production--and where are the road-going versions? The big lie is that the S7-R is competing in a class for production-based race cars, yet it is based on a production car that has never been produced! No one has ever claimed that you could buy a C5-R (or, for that matter, a Viper GTS-R) from your local dealership. And no one has ever claimed that a C5-R could be had for $55,000. The C5-R (and the Viper GTS-R) are, however, based on and built from production street-legal road-going automobiles, street automobiles that came well before competition versions, and automobiles that were and are readily available to the general public.

The fact that Sateen has manufactured more S7-Rs than GM has C5-Rs means only that GM and Pratt & Miller are not currently selling race cars to the public. GM has sold approximately 140,000 C5 Corvettes since the model was introduced in 1997, which exceeds the volume of street-legal and road-going Saleen S7s by... approximately 140,000 units. And most of these have "stickered" for well under $55,000.

Until and unless Saleen makes the S7 available as a street-legal road car, we'll continue to rail against its classification as a "production" car, rather than as a prototype, for racing purposes.

_ken :w

[Bullitt]

Wow, this post is burning it up! Now, it's my turn. Let me first say that I like the design and purpose of the GTS Viper. I dream of the day of a modern day 427 Corvette. However, I'm a bit tired of the way the German Daimler guys have been treated. They didn't put a gun to anyone's head and demand control. It was a buyout, fair and square. That was until a few million dollar heads faced pink slips. The Germans don't take nonsense, PERIOD! No fat, no fluff and no bulls**t. If a few million dollar salaried CEOs thought they were going to continue to exist in a company where their German counterpart makes significantly less, then perhaps they're not as smart as their wages suggest. I'm pretty sure that they will still be able to feed their family. :eyerole Anyone who buys a Chrysler in the coming years will be glad that Daimler spent their money on quality and addressed customer complaints.At one point there was a requirement that all of the GT cars run an engine configuration that is offered on a factory vehicle, and the 427 is not offered anywhere in the GM stable (including the C5). Oh my God! Engines (427) and cars (Saleen) not being mass produced and they're allowed to race! Rule bending! Blasphemy....YEAH, RIGHT! I would think that the great, late Enzo Ferrari is laughing at those thoughts still. Surely, I would hope that no one who follows road racing and endurance racing would find this the "norm." If rules were not bent, we would have never had the classic 250 GTO. It's time Viper and Corvette guys realized how much they owe to this race car for it's design. History has taught us that competitive racing will still exist, no matter what happens. If Steve Saleen can make a car to beat GM and follow his dreams, than by all means I hope he does. There is no excuse why a sponsored factory team and their supporters complain about a "little guy." Heaven forbid if Panoz wins consistently! Ford die-hards are always pointing out that only Father Ford was able to beat Ferrari with the GT-40. With all the damn money they had, not to mention Gurney and Foyt, they better had. Ford was never dominant against Ferrari, they had to fight the Italians tooth and nail. They left when the rules changed, but Ferrari continued till Enzo Ferrari decided that Formula 1 demanded complete attention. Dodge had no other team to run the GTS effort. :L :L :L I wonder how many teams would have loved to gotten factory support and financing? There are racers that can barely make it as it is. The fact remains that the Big Three use racing for advertisement and not for the love of racing. What American manufacturers need to worry about is the fact that Porsche might decide to return to beat everyone. When they go all out factory racing, it is to WIN and WIN and then WIN some more. Chrysler, GM or Ford wouldn't stand a chance. Take all the wins of American manufaturers in roadracing and compare it to just Porsche or Ferrari. There is no comparison. Racing should not be considered a sport, a hobby nor ever should be. It is a way of life. --Bullitt Racing is life. Anything that happens before or after is just waiting. --Steve McQueen, Lemans

[Maxwedge]

Actually Bullitt your quite wrong on the "They didn't put a gun to anyones head, it was a buyout".
What it was...
Daimlers Stock was worth More per unit than Chryslers(like 3x more) to combine the stocks they had to liquidate all of them. Value of a stock is based largely on perception not actually earnings. Chrysler CEO Bob Eaton forced Jergan Schrempp(in Bob ONLY good move in the negotiations) to even the stocks out in value by paying the Chrysler stockholders the difference ALONG with getting a equal percentage of stock in the new company.
The "Buy out" wasn't really a buyout. Mearly making things even. The Germans(thanks to Bob Eaton and several BAD BAD moves) basically took over by. 1) Making the company a German AG(the german form of INCorperating) 2)Moving the Headquarters to Germany 3) Bob Lutz who was the only American exec who spoke German and was the only one with ANY knowledge on the typical german line of thought(due to Bob Lutz 10 Years as an exec with BMW). Bob Lutz was also the ONLY American that spoke German.. Lutz was forced out of the negotiations By Bob Eaton due to Eaton feeling the Lutz got too much credit with Chrysler turn around in the early 90s and even at that moment Eaton was largly ignored by the press. So Eaton wanted to take credit for the largest merger in History...well he shot himself in the foot it appears...
4)now for the big mistake..Bob Eaton and Jergan were supposed to be CO-CEOs..well after a few months of this arrangement Bob Eaton tendered his retirement for sometime in 99(one year later) effectively making him a lame duck and setting the power structure to lean heavily towards the Germans.
5)Since the germans have taken power Chrysler hasn't released one fresh design and havent done one thing out of the ordinary except run the company deeper into the ground. Life is MUCH different for the Germans who were used to having 3 competitors, in a high markup environment as opposed to Chrysler that has 17+ competitors in a low markup environment. Not a single release from Chrysler since the german takeover has been anything more than a "refinement" of an existing style. The New Ram is a play on the old theme, the same for the Neon, Stratus, Viper, etc etc. We will be lucky to get even 1 new prototype this year. Last year all we got was 1 PT Crusier convertable..big deal.
as far as Viper engine quality...when you compare it to Ferrari, lambo, Porsche, Vett, all the others..I would dare say that you can expect 90% of the Viper motors to get 100,000 miles on it with no sweat. Try finding a Ferrari or Porsche making 450bhp that does that without a Major engine rebuild HHMMMMM...bet you cant find many..
as far as GM learning curve..The Vipers 2nd year out they finished 1-2-3 and they did it with less than half the money GM dumped in the Vett. The Viper was also MUCH close to the stock car than the GM by a LONG shot..
Damion
PS
On a non related topic..Bullitt I AGREE with you on the 3.60 rear end gear option and the elimination of usless gadgets along with (and especially) RADIO DELETE...I think the original Z06 cars "came" with this option(came is relative due to "getting it" mean your loosing something)..
Make the Z06 a race car that passes emmisions...only cause it has too...LOL

[Viper 10]

Damion:

You forgot to mention a key reason for the merger...
- Daimler was on the verge of bankruptcy because they were mired in debt.
- Chrysler was very cash rich, with relatively low debt.

Take a look atthe Chrysler product line and see what technology or quality has come from Germany, and you will be hard pressed to find anything. When you look at what Daimler took from Chrysler, it is a whole different story because they robbed the cupboards bare.

I wouldn't give the Germans credit for anything, except ruining a good business model for automotive comebacks. They took a perfectly good company that was teaching the other two of the Big 3 how business could be done in the new millineum. Bob Lutz was instrumental in Chrysler's success. I hope that he has the same impact on GM.

I also hope that the rumors of Chrysler going indepenedent again are true.

[Bullitt]

I think it's premature to say that the merger is not successful. Second, as is pointed out, people in the Chrysler organization are of equal, if not more to blame for the power struggle. I constantly hear among the Wall Street crowd how everything is cutthroat and deals are a form of "battle." Yet, when something goes wrong, it's the lawyers who run in with lawsuits to stop the fight and wipe everyone's noses. It's hard to feel sorry for people who fight among themselves and ending up losing more than they would've had they stayed together. So, I really don't feel any sorrow for the Chrysler CEOs. If you put yourself in a corner, don't be mad when you're stuck there. A similar scenario is being played out with Enron suing Dynergy, by blaming them for the collapse instead of looking at themselves.Not a single release from Chrysler since the German takeover has been anything more than a "refinement" of an existing style. Surely, it is known how the Germans, Austrians and Japanese do buisness when it comes to automotive development. Take one look at the Mercedes Benz history of car evolution, and their techniques are clear as day. Refinement, refinement and more refinement. I don't think this is a bad thing, but drastic changes do suffer. To think that anything more would happen in a shorter amount of time, is to ignore how the Daimler corporation is run. When one of the entities has taken control of the driver's seat, don't be surprised by the destination. Try finding a Ferrari or Porsche making 450bhp that does that without a Major engine rebuild HHMMMMM...bet you cant find many.. First, I never lambasted the Viper's engine quality, just for the record. Second, we can argue the obvious, but what is fact, is that we are talking about different customers who treat their cars in different ways. I think one of the biggest mistakes Ferrari or Porsche owners can make is the decision to buy their cars as an investment. "Drive the damn car!", as was said in the great movie GRAND PRIX. Third, I have to be honest and say I have never heard of a Ferrari possess very high mileage. I'll do some research, but it misses an important point. Ferraris are still made by hand. Yes, they did finally incorporate a production line to somewhat modern standards in the '80s and have made appriopiate updates through the years. In large though, you're talking about a factory that still houses their Formula 1 racing programme behind the same stone walls as their road cars. A factory that still uses their own race track across the street. A factory who still contracts work out to Pininfarina, who together have shared one of the most illustratous partnerships in the buisness world. A factory that builds and developes their own engines, transmissions and suspensions. In essence, despite the pass of time, a factory that pales in comparison to the size of GM, Chrysler, Ford, Honda, Mercedes, BMW and on and on. Still, they maintain perhaps the most recognizable symbol in the world, the Prancing Horse emblem. When you see a Ferrari, you know exactly what you are looking at. If I was put into a position that would have me choose only one car in my whole life, it would be a Ferrari. Don't get me wrong, I love my Corvette and would like to own and experience many different cars. I bleed FERRARI RED, though. You can judge me as insane, but it was my first passion, and I cannot deny it. as far as GM learning curve..The Vipers 2nd year out they finished 1-2-3 and they did it with less than half the money GM dumped in the Vett. The Viper was also MUCH close to the stock car than the GM by a LONG shot I agree with this statement, but would like to point out that the Viper was a considerable leap in the power advancement in the current car market, at that time. With 10 cylinders, it does have quite the performance advantage. However, racing is racing and certain things have happened before. I don't want to deminish the Viper's acheivements, but other teams have shown similar domination in the past of endurance racing.

In closing Damion, I know we can agree and disagree on different topics, this is the freedom we are entitled to. I would also like to hear anymore suggestions on the C6. So please post any other things that I may have overlooked in the C6 Performance Goal post. Thanks for sharing and expanding on these topics. --Bullitt

[Viper 10]

Bullitt:

"In large though, you're talking about a factory that still houses their Formula 1 racing programme behind the same stone walls as their road cars. A factory that still uses their own race track across the street".

Your statement only applies to the 550's and the F's which are built in Maranello. The 3's are built in the same plants that made the 308, which is a Fiat plant. Your comparison the Big 3's versus ferrari is not acurate. It is not poor little Ferrari against the Big 3, it is poor little Fiat (which bought Ferrari when it was on the verge of bankruptcy). The ultimate slap in the face to Enzo is that Fiat also owns Lamborghini (which would cause him to rollover in his grave).

As much as you would like to place blame on the American management team at Chrysler for their woes (so as to not tarnish the German management mystique'), but I will also beg to differ with you here because almost the entire senior management team that took Chrysler to the success that they achieveed in the '90s is virtually gone. This is probably why we are seeing a huge design void at Chrysler (which is still living on designs that came from the pre-merger Chrysler). The DC designs have adopted many of the Chrysler design trends (look at the flag ship S Classes and you will see an amazing similarities to the Intrepids and 300M designs).

If you are a true Ferrari afficionado, you will remember the days when Enzo swore that he would never have a car of his that had anything less than a 12 cylinder powerplant in it. Yet because of economics, he built V-8's that still are firmly embedded in their product line. How would you compare the hand built quality of a Ferrari to American hand built Vipers? Hard to compare a car that was built to be looked at, to a car that was built to be driven?

It seems that you love Ferrari's for the marketing mystique that they have created over the years. I personally love Ferrari from days gone by like the GTO's, the early Torpedo fendered Testatrossa's when Ferrari's were driven and raced by their owners. Today Ferrari has evolved to an almost cult-like following group of owners and fans. When was the last time that you remember Ferrari being competitive in the sports car series' and Le Mans (their 360's and 550's have been relegated to the Challenge Cup series with other slow and un-reliable Ferrari's)? It's been a very long time (Ferrari has not been competitive since the '60s).

Thanks for the interesting discussion.

Brad

[Bullitt]

I never suggestd poor little Ferrari, Brad. What I do suggest is that despite their size, they still build and continue to build some of the greatest cars in the world. Though they do not compete in factory backed endurance racing nowadays, their F1 success is undisputed. Some will bad-mouth Formula 1 and say it is far removed from anything else. What no one should dispute, that it is the most technological and advanced form of motorsport anywhere in the world. Ferrari has lead the way for quite sometime. As far as being caught up in the mystique, perhaps you didn't read my quoting of the movie GRAND PRIX, when it was said, "Drive the damn car!" Again, I point out where some Ferrari owners make a mistake to just "look at" the cars. So to say I'm the same way, is a obvious mistake. Second, you have made the argument of not comparing the C5 and the Viper, because of the former's GT platform. You have also said this about Ferrari's and Porsches, so why lambast them now, for what you admit are two different types of cars?

You point out Fiat ownership, that happened back in the sixties, Yet, Ferrari has still been able to keep it's identity in large part to Enzo's way of doing things and the way he built Ferrari's power structure. It happened because Massissmo Ferrari, had deep feelings for his car. Cars that were born of racing, to support his racing exploits. The early road Ferraris were built for that purpose. I'm not an afficionando, because that word is not strong enough. It's something more. The reason I love Ferrari, is mostly because the name, reputation, car build and racing success clearly shows that it is more of a priority with them, than any other car maker in the world. And as far as comparisions go, the Ferrari is no "plastic fantastic!" It's hard to look at the Viper and not draw similarites to the Cobra Daytona and the Ferrari GTO. Aghast, Ferrari influence? ;)When was the last time that you remember Ferrari being competitive in the sports car series' and Le Mans (their 360's and 550's have been relegated to the Challenge Cup series with other slow and un-reliable Ferrari's)? It's been a very long time (Ferrari has not been competitive since the '60s). Yes, it has been quite sometime since a factory effort has been launched. Enzo Ferrari, decided that Formula 1 needed complete attention and support. What was sacrificed was the endurance car efforts. It was a decision that while it made sense, I struggle with. To Ferrari's credit however, they are still in Formula 1, not just to leave and say, "we accomplished enough." In FIA GT, the 360s and the 550 Maranello GTOs driven by independant teams, do face competition with Porsches, Lister Storms and Vipers. Prodrive has had the most success, building a car in a relative short time and taking decisive wins. They were also able to take track records in the process, which were formerly owned by Vipers. Though, Ferrari, has made the decision to not lend factory support, I would hope that the financing in sponsorship dollars can be attained by Prodrive, to show the factory how sucessful the car can be. Prodrive have won Rally Championships, so hopefully this level can be translated to the 550 Maranello GTO. Despite the fact that Ferrari has been gone from endurance racing for sometime now, along with Porsche's absence, neither of the Big Three have been able to duplicate that history, not in just one category, but in an overall picture.

Chrysler has suffered through voids before. They have never been at the constant forefront, changing the automotive world. The past success in the '90s, is almost a contradiction to the way things were usually done. The only difference now, is the fact that Daimler is in charge. Even before the merger, Chrysler still had quality control problems with many of their cars. They are by no means the model of which the world should follow, in this respect. GM and to a lesser extent Ford, experience these problems, too. I'll try to find a link to the study, but it was found that through their own manufaturer records, that the larger cars builders, American and some Eastern, suffer a recall rate 25% higher than in the past. This is based on the companies own service and recall records, not figures pulled out from thin air. Surely, if Chrysler sees a decrease in this instance, it would be an improvement.

Lastly, whether they are Germans or Americans, the people to blame for the infighting at Chrysler are within themselves. As Damion pointed out, Bob Eaton shoved out Bob Lutz (a former BMW executive) and afterwards, made some very bad moves. Perhaps, the power structure would be different if not for this. This seems to be common though, in this type of enviroment. A little Napoleon complex and all the power is sacrificed. Despite an inflated salary, idiots are idiots. Also, the discrepancy between similar American vs. German CEO salaries in the same company, is not in dispute.


--Bullitt

As a side note, I would like to make the following comments as an observation in whole and not directed to just any one person or groups of. The inflation of salaries I believe, has no good excuse. It becomes more commonplace with each passing year. It happens in almost every aspect of American buisness. Take away the salaries and strip off the suit, to realize that a man is still a man. He will make dumb moves or smart ones. Will either look behind himself to place blame, in the abscence of a better excuse or raise his hand to say, "It was my fault." It does not matter where he is from, how much money he makes, what clothes he wears, or what he does. The value comes from his actions that are borne forth from his experiences and the level of his humbleness. This is the measure of a man. Some fall short, some barely make it and some rise above their peers. History will judge for itself eventually, but excuses are in the end, are just that.

[Viper 10]

Bullitt;

As much as I love this discussion, aren't we a little off track from the original thread. We should carry this discussion on under an other cars topic.

I will say that Ferrari's current string of wins has to do more with their choice of fuel management/traction control systems than anything else. If you remember that when Shumacher came to Ferrari he could not get a podium (much less a win) to save his life. That was because the Italians were hell bent on using all Italian developed (or at worse case Euro developed) systems. When they made the conversion to the same system that Shumacher had previousely used (which by the way was and is illegal as heck) marked the day that Ferrari re-established itself.

I just thought that this would get a kick out of something that is not publicly known. The reason that I know this first hand is that a good friend of mine is a very high technical resource at this fuel management/traction control company that supported Ferrari and others in the F1 world. Those who have the most money, wins...

Have a good day.

Brad

[Bullitt]

In Formula 1, rules' bending is a fun pastime. Do you remember McLaren's "third pedal?" This is racing however, as Roger Penske will tell you with the example of the Sunoco Trans Am Camaro. As far as the most money, Ferrari trails the BMW/Williams team and is almost even with McLaren. BMW had, by everyone's agreeable consensus, the most advanced and affective traction control system this year. If the system was in affect so effectively at Ferrari as is suggested, when traction control was banned, why the years of defeat to Williams and McLaren?

Also, Michael lost the title to Damon Hill, but battled to the end with Jacques, when he made an unfortunate decision in Japan. He had to learn from it the hard way and the next year, battled with Mika Hakkinen again to the end in Japan. A flat tire was the end of it. More hardship. In '99, career threatening injuries sidelined him. Then Irvine, coming close to almost snag the Driver's Championship. They did bring the Manufaturer's Championship home, though. Schumacher is a great driver, no matter the detractors argument. I didn't like his style for quite sometime, but his character that has been developed over the past few years, tells of his place in history. To see him in Spa, where big horsepower is favored (BMW), and to win so decisively is a testament to that. Schumacher's place is solidified in F1 history, sour grapes withstanding.

I also agree that perhaps this subject belongs somewhere else, but it sure has been fun. I like the debating, it makes for great discussion and thought. Thanks everyone. I knew that the CACC was good, but that believe is reinforced by these past posts. Like I said before elsewhere, a healthy debate is the cornerstone to understanding. Once again a sincere, "thank you." --Bullitt