View Full Version : To Be Or Not To Be Flight Judged
I know we have lots of NCRS members here at the CAC. Some members I've spoken too are in it just for the vast expanse of knowledge and have no intention of ever having a car flight judged. I, on the other hand, fully intend to someday have a Flight car although it may not be the one I have now.
So with that said, who out there intends to go for Flight judging someday? When do you plan to do it?
If you've already done it, go ahead and tell the rest of us about the judging experience! That was a not so subtle hint directed at Guy, John, Chuck, and anyone else who has been through it.
Tom Bryant
01-18-03, 11:52 PM
I intend to have the 81 Flight Judged on the chapter level this year if I can. I intended to last year too but I made up my mind too late to get into the field.
Tom
I've actually tossed around the idea of finding a clean but cheap 86 just to say I have a Flight judged C4. I wonder who will be the first to Top Flight a C4 this year. I wish I could afford to get one and have it ready and judged in time for Hershey just for the feather in the cap of being one of the first C4s judged at a National convention. So, anyone out there offering a donation - I'll accept greenbacks or fiberglass:D.
-Eric
Tom Bryant
01-19-03, 12:04 AM
There seems to be a lot of low mileage, supposedly exellent condition, never seen snow early C4s in the trader papers lately. Some for very reasonable prices. Maybe you will be the first to Top Flight a C4.
Tom
Originally posted by Tom Bryant
There seems to be a lot of low mileage, supposedly exellent condition, never seen snow early C4s in the trader papers lately. Some for very reasonable prices. Maybe you will be the first to Top Flight a C4.
Tom
Now if they were only doing ZR-1s... :D
When I bought the 82 2 1/2 years ago, I found this organization called the NCRS on the internet, and found there was a chapter meet in Maine in a few weeks. I emailed the judging chairman (Mark Lincoln) and he CALLED me 5 minutes later. After a few minutes Mark said, "Sounds like you have a Bowtie car. Why don't you have the 82 judged?" OK, I'm in - I joined the NCRS real quick! The day of judging the local chapter members and I met at a rest area on I-95 in NH. I was first and then came about 20 cars rolling in one by one from all generations. We were quite the site in the rest area.
The meet was at a member's home in Wells, Me. First up some more introductions, a quick owner's meeting and on to judging. Five teams of two judges each went over my car for several hours. Now at this point I've never read a judging manual so I was too stupid to be nervous. Oh, the Fram air & oil filters are not correct - oops. Same with the battery and I get brownie points for an NCRS sticker, battery quick-disconnect and fire extinguisher? Before the day was out, the 82 took Top Flight. Even better was the education I received on not only what was wrong, but why many thigs were correct - my 82 is supposed to have that green dipstick? You bet.
The following year it was on to the Northeast Regional outside of Montreal where again the 82 took Top Flight. I'll spare you the details since that has already been posted. But I will say it was a great time!
Now I have the 82 registered for both Flight and Bowtie judging at the National NCRS convention coming up this summer in Hershey, Pa. I'm waiting for that envelope from the NCRS which will tell me if the 82 is in or not. There are only so many slots available and I'm just one of SO many who want to do the same. If I don't get into both categories, I hope to get into Bowtie since Bowtie can only be achieved at a national convention.
So there you have it. Quite long I'm sorry to say, but I must add that my experience has been a great education. Although I'm very proud of my 82, my hat's off the those folks with the C1's, C2's and early C3's - the folks who put a lot of sweat, time and money into this hobby. I was lucky enough to find an original 82. There have been a few correct parts to hunt down, but that also was fun.
It's Sunday and tomorrow I leave for Florida and my first Winter Regional. The 82 is ready to fly but due to my co-pilot's medical problems, the 82 stays home. We had to make the final call yesterday. As many of you know, my pal has been fighting cancer for over a year now. The chemo treatments aggravate an older back problem and the passenger seat in the Vette is not adjustable but we'll be there.
Thanks for reading.
:w
Guy
Great story, Guy - I always encourage new members to have their cars judged before they start working on them; it's a great learning experience, and regardless whether they qualify for an award first time out or not, the score sheets the owner takes home make a great worklist and planning tool to improve the car, if that's what the owner wants to do. Between the published Judging Guide and score sheets from a meet, you've got everything you need to start deciding where you can get the most points for your bucks for future Flight Judging (or, for a car like yours where a Bowtie may be in the future, what NOT to touch!). Even more important than the car are the great people you meet when you join and get involved with your local NCRS Chapter and participate in all the activities. Good luck at Hershey - I'll see you there!
:beer
I've had my '69 and the '78 I just sold both flight judged. Both at the chapter level, and I also had the '69 done at a regional. I started with having the '69 judged at a chapter meet, and was pretty nervous. The experience, however, was great. I was a relatively new member to the chapter, and although I've been a member of national since the late '70s, I had never had a car judged before. The chapter judging is lot lower key than regional (and, I'm sure, national), and is a great way to get started.
One thing to keep in mind, though. The judges are not perfect. In the chapter meet a couple things were judged as incorrect on my '69, and I immediately started spending money and time to "correct" them. My windshield is one example. It's a clear windshield (no tinting), however the judging manual only had details on the tinted windshield at the time, so I lost points because they thought it was not correct. I ordered a new windshield, but fortunately discovered the truth before I replaced it. Unfortunately, the new glass got broken before I could send it back, but that's another story.
I say this not to fault the judges, but rather to remind people that they're only human, and not everyone is an expert on every Corvette. If you're serious about having a really well restored car, have it judged 2 or 3 times at different meets and by different judges, if possible, before making any major changes to your car.
Originally posted by JohnZ
Even more important than the car are the great people you meet when you join and get involved with your local NCRS Chapter and participate in all the activities. Good luck at Hershey - I'll see you there!
:beer
Quite right, John. I left out the best part - the NCRS community! A truly wonderful group of folks. That's why I'm on my way to Kissimmee, Fl tomorrow - just to be there, participate and learn. I needed an original radiator cap and it was an NCRS member I met at a local cruise night who pointed me to John Pirkle (and Mr. Pirkle had an NOS one still in bubble wrap:D).
:w
Guy
Originally posted by JohnZ
......I always encourage new members to have their cars judged before they start working on them; it's a great learning experience, and regardless whether they qualify for an award first time out or not, the score sheets the owner takes home make a great worklist and planning tool to improve the car, if that's what the owner wants to do. Between the published Judging Guide and score sheets from a meet, you've got everything you need to start deciding where you can get the most points for your bucks for future Flight Judging (or, for a car like yours where a Bowtie may be in the future, what NOT to touch!).....:beer
John,
Funny you should say that, in a phone conversation today with the Hershey chairman he asked me (for the second time) when I was going to get my car judged. Mind you it is nowhere near restored IMHO but he thinks I should do it at our chapter meet in May just so I can have a benchmark to go by for future projects. Tobe honest, I should probably change my vote up top cause it probably will end up judged this year, though I'll be too busy at Nationals to even think about getting it judged, as if it would even qualify but then miracles do happen:D.
- Eric
tonyk72
01-21-03, 11:40 AM
I'm thinking of getting mine judged this year. I'm hoping for at least a Third Flight my 1st time out. I started on a few minor improvements...correct plug wires, valve cover bolts & getting my factory radio, clock & AC working...
I'll re-evaluate whether or not I'll continue after that. If I'm that far gone...I don't think I'd be willing to invest all that $$$, especially since it already runs and looks good.
Originally posted by tonyk72
I'm thinking of getting mine judged this year.....
So Tony, if it Flights, any chance of you making the haul to Hershey?
-Eric
tonyk72
01-21-03, 03:24 PM
Probably not...my wife is havin' a baby and I think I should stick around :)
Originally posted by tonyk72
Probably not...my wife is havin' a baby and I think I should stick around :)
Well there's always next year. 2004 National will be up in the Great White North - may be closer for you than Hershey. So I guess I'll see you in Canada.:D
-Eric:w
Originally posted by 71Shark
Well there's always next year. 2004 National will be up in the Great White North - may be closer for you than Hershey. So I guess I'll see you in Canada.:D
-Eric:w
Yup - the part of Canada that's SOUTH of Detroit! :D
Tom Kearns
01-30-03, 11:05 AM
I went throught that many times a couple of years back and finally made Top Flight with my 1969 L-46 Roadster. In fact I wrote an article on the experience for NCRS and made the cover of their restorer magazine in 2000. You can read the article and see the car at www.discoverynet.com\~tkearns\bigdog.htm
It can be nerve racking, but once complete,...its VERY satisfying !
Paul Borowski
02-03-03, 08:26 PM
I just bought a Silver '68 Coupe 327/350hp in Atlanta,Ga, that I have not even seen yet and have already registered it for the Atlanta Regional April 3-5. How's that for jumping right into the "mix" of things??? I've been judging mainly '73-'82s since '98, helped out a few times at the chapter level on '63-'72s, so I pretty prepared on "what to expect of the judging". This time, I'll be the one gettin' judged!!!
paintdaddy
02-04-03, 03:55 AM
Hey paul,Id like to see that 68 .I also have a 68 silverstone coupe.Also where is the regionals in Atl..Id like to go to that.:w
Originally posted by paintdaddy
Hey paul,Id like to see that 68 .I also have a 68 silverstone coupe.Also where is the regionals in Atl..Id like to go to that.:w
Stone Mountain. I'm sure Paul has the hotel name. Anyone know if they still do the laser show on the mountain? I think it was a seasonal thing too.
:w
Guy
paintdaddy
02-04-03, 11:40 AM
Great,My camaro pace car was in a concours show at St. mountain a few years ago.Thats a good place for a show.As far as the laser show ,I think they still do it but it starts up memorial day. :cool
The Meet is at the Stone Mountain Inn. This is all I could find on the internet:
http://ncrssoutheastchapter.com/events/southeastevents.html
:w
Guy
Paul Borowski
02-04-03, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by paintdaddy
Hey paul,Id like to see that 68 .I also have a 68 silverstone coupe.Also where is the regionals in Atl..Id like to go to that.:w
Yes, I know. I've seen that pic you use on the Internet. Looks just like the one I purchased. The meet is in the grass field right out front of the Stone Mtn Inn. We had a meet in 2001 two years ago there, last year the SouthEast meet was in Asheville,NC. Gonna drive down a day early, pick-up the car Weds evening, then head to Stone Mtn after I take care of all the title work and such. Hope to see you and others there.
c5vetter
02-10-03, 10:58 AM
purchased my 1963 SWC last July 2002 and have enjoyed taking it to local "fun" shows -
I was asked by the local chapter to consider joining the local chapter and having my car
judged - I am doing so on March 23 here at a local chapter meet in Maryland
Originally posted by c5vetter
purchased my 1963 SWC last July 2002 and have enjoyed taking it to local "fun" shows -
I was asked by the local chapter to consider joining the local chapter and having my car
judged - I am doing so on March 23 here at a local chapter meet in Maryland
Rick,
Are you a member of the Mid-Atlantic Chapter of the NCRS?
c5vetter
02-10-03, 12:45 PM
Rob,
joined the Mason-Dixon local chapter
JL66REDCPE
02-15-03, 12:30 PM
I had my 66 judged at the Delaware Valley NCRS Chapter show held in Jenkintown PA in October of 2001. I am a member of that chapter as well as the Central NJ NCRS chapter. Both chapters have great folks as members. I was fortunate in that I had good judges -- courteous and took the time to explain the deductions so that I could fix them. The car recvd top flight status.
Tom Bryant
02-15-03, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by JL66REDCPE
I had my 66 judged at the Delaware Valley NCRS Chapter show held in Jenkintown PA in October of 2001. The car recvd top flight status.
Congratulations on your Top Flight. It must be a beautiful car.
Tom
C5Vetter....looking forward to seeing you at the Mason Dixon Chapter meet in March. My wife Pat, and I have our 69BB entered. We have 17 cars, PLUS a waiting list. Since we do this meet indoors, we have to limit the number of entrants to 5 solid axle, 5 midyears, and 5 sharks. This year, we're the first chapter to do the 84-86. We have 2 of those. Should be a fun day. LOTS of the "heavy hitters" will be there, as the NCRS National is having a board meeting in Hershey, and most of those guys are coming to our Chapter meet. We're having a judging school on Saturday prior to the Sunday meet. I do believe we're having 2 1953's there also.
We MIGHT move the meet "down the street" to Ernie Swanson's old Olds dealership on Crain Highway. Ernie's new Pontiac dealership on Ritchie Highway just MIGHT be too small. Stay tuned for details. We can get 18-20 cars in the Olds dealership. Chuck
vettefinderjim
02-16-03, 08:39 AM
I joined NCRS in 1976 and started the Southern California Chapter. That was over 50 Corvettes ago, and I will say that the people and friendships I have made during the last 27 years are some of my best friends today. That portion of the hobby is never discussed.
Over the years I have found that the "Hunt" is 90% of the fun. And then the war stories at Chapter, Regional and National Meets have definately left smile wrinkles on my face.
In 1985 I bought an old clapped out B/P race Corvette. I restored it to 1964 "race condition" ala my NCRS training. The other racers at the time wondered why I did that, as their Recaro seated, caged updated cars looked great (or so they thought). Now we see Kevin MacKay's wonderful race Corvettes show up at Medowbrook, Pebble Beach and Amelia Island (on 3-9-03) restored to perfect 'as raced when new' condition.
So the next time you get your car judged, and a judge makes an "oops"......take a deep breath and look around. There is a lot more to the old car hobby than "TR" nuts and bolts. And the NCRS should be proud of setting the pace for more than just Corvettes.
Save the wave......drive your car, and yes, if all goes well my wife Dee will bring out her 77 Bowtie/ Survivor sometime next year and "get it judged".
Jim
Paul Borowski
02-16-03, 09:20 AM
ChuckG??? This is the first year I think in four I will not be attending. Due to my "off" days now being Thurs & Fridays and since I only get so many "vacation" days per year, I have to be conservative with them. Have just enough days to do Stone Mountain, Seven Springs, St Louis Regionals, Bloomington, Hershey and Corvettes@Carlisle. May be able to slip a Chapter meet in towards the "end" of Summer, IF I have any vacation left. Sounds like you guys are going "all out" that weekend:dance
c5vetter
02-16-03, 03:00 PM
Chuck,
look forward to meeting you and all the other folks from Mason-Dixon.
Got the confirmation from John St.Peter this past Monday that my 1963 was one of the five chosen for the mid-years!
Erik S. Klein
02-21-03, 01:36 PM
I've been an NCRS member on and off since the mid 80s and have always wanted to have a car that was worthy of flight judging.
My current car is close in many ways but there are several obvious items that would result in full-point deductions and that would be difficult to fix without some serious effort.
I may still go to a chapter meet and let the judges take a look if I'm not taking up a space for a car that has a real chance, but I'll probably get the car fully restored before I attempt anything past a chapter meet.
Maybe I'll get lucky and the wife will let me buy another toy that's closer to stock. . . :)
tonyk72
02-21-03, 02:26 PM
I think it would be more fun to buy one (or make one) that is closer to nowhere near stock!:)
Originally posted by Erik S. Klein
I've been an NCRS member on and off since the mid 80s and have always wanted to have a car that was worthy of flight judging.
My current car is close in many ways but there are several obvious items that would result in full-point deductions and that would be difficult to fix without some serious effort.
Erik,
If your car truly was delivered to its first owner with the mods you described (paint, pipes, etc.) then you may have a case so long as it's all very well documented. By all means, take it to a Chapter meet, documentation in tow, and see what happens.
BTW, I love the rear paint on your car, very nice:upthumbs.
Tom Bryant
02-21-03, 09:49 PM
Don't be shy about having your car judged. NCRS often gets a bad reputation about being snobs but they are Corvette nuts too. Most especially love to dig into a cars history, especially if it has something unusual about it or was delivered with unusual features.
I have made my opinion known in my columns about modifications that were done early on and even the restoration of old customs. If your car was delivered like that or was modified early by the original owner there is no way I would change it. It is a more unique part of Corvette history as is even if it isn't exactly NCRS correct.
I agree with Eric. I like the paint scheme.
Tom
Erik S. Klein
02-21-03, 11:17 PM
If your car truly was delivered to its first owner with the mods you described (paint, pipes, etc.) then you may have a case so long as it's all very well documented.
I have in front of me the car's Window Sticker which lists only the car's factory options, none of which include the custom work.
I also have a letter signed by the original owner of the car stating that it was delivered by Harry Mann Chevrolet (Los Angeles) with the wheels, tires and side exhausts as they are now.
The car appeared in a period Sony/Mahoney advertisement (along with Jonathan Winters and a Porche) with the wheels, tires and side exhaust showing and the luggage rack visible.
I have nothing to confirm that the rear paint is as-delivered and I do know that the car has been repainted once.
I could probably contact the original owner if need be for additional documentation from him.
Harry Mann Chevrolet seems to be either out of business or under a new name. They used to be at 5735 Crenshaw Blvd. in LA.
It's certainly worth a chapter meet, at least.
Tom Bryant
02-22-03, 11:03 AM
Interesting History. Can't say what happened to Harry Mann Chevrolet but they were a big name in Chevy high performance and Corvettes back then.
Tom
Your car looks great :cool , and no doubt it was delivered as you indicated; however, the judging standard is the car as it was delivered to the first retail purchaser after normal dealer preparation, exclusive of any owner- or dealer-inspired alterations. This is the standard everyone works to, and it means you would probably get deductions for the paint, exhaust system and the wheels, as it didn't come off the truck that way.
:beer
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