Darn thang won't run!

[Solid62]

Anybody have some words of advice for a shadetree mechanic?

My 62 decided to stop running and I am stumped...

So much for Carlise or Bloomington...:cry

History: 62 340 Motor, LT1 heads, 62 Dual point distributor, Holley 3310 Carb. new plugs, wires, points

Motor went crazy (cough, sputter, kaput) and died as I was pulling plug wires one at a time to look for suspected misfiring cylinder. I swore it was a classic bad timing set, but no it looks good.

Symptoms : Barely runs (if at all), acts like timing has jumped, or Carb is not supplying gas.

So far: Pulled Timing Chain Cover, Good steel gears and chain present, marks still aligned

Distributor aligned with TDC on Compression stroke, new points (dual Points) Previous owner had disconnected one set, changing this has no change either way.

Changed Carb with a verified well running Carter AFB. No change

Turning distributor does not help. Advancing it enough makes it start but runs hella rough and dies.

Changed out coil.

I have been wrenchin motors for 20 years and this one has me stumped. What, is there a fuse or something I'm missing?:eyerole

I have gone from diagnosis to part swapping:mad Not my style!

I am willing to spend the money for a real mechanic, but who do I turn to? The 25 year old "certified" mechanics at the dealer make me wanna barf from fear of the lack of experience.:puke
Cleveland is a big town, gotta be a real vette man out there somewhere?


ANY IDEAS???

Rick and Donna:beer

[Jack]

R&D:
It seems listed changing out nearly all of ignition...did you change out condensor?

Is coil polarity correct...neg side to points?
Jack

[rd62rdstr]

community.webtv.net/rd62rdstr/SalsMuscleCars (http://community.webtv.net/rd62rdstr/SalsMuscleCars) Rick, after wrenching on cars for 20+ years, I'm sure you've thought about it. But in frustration it's hard to think clearly sometimes. I always go back to fuel or electric. Is the carb getting fuel? Is it at a steady pressure? This eliminates blockages or bad fuel pumps. Is there spark at the cap? If not I trace it back to the battery. I had a similar problem with my camaro once. Turned out the positive battery cable at it's attachment point on the engine before the starter had come loose. It would then start, run lousy, makes lots of black smoke, sputter and die. The cable had come to rest against the exhaust manifold, burnt through and was shorting out. We tried everything, practically rebuilding the carb! Another problem I had once with the 62 was the factory battery hold down. The frame of it sits really close to the positive battery terminal and the cable if sitting too low on the post will make contact with it, shorting out and resulting in the same behavior. I hope this helps! Sal

[Tom Bryant]

Hi Rick,
As Sal said check your battery cables for shorting out against something and also check your coil connections and firing order. 18436572. A bad condenser can cause problems too.

Another thing I can think of is the rotor. I think I mentioned it in an eariler post but I'll say it again. I had a dual point in a '56 Chevy that had too much end play in the shaft. It allowed the rotor to hit the cap contacts. While it didn't break the rotor contact clear off it did break an alignment tab on the rotor and the contact turned back at a 45 degree angle. This caused everything to fire late with a too wide gap between rotor and cap. You can imagine what this sounded like at 6000 rpms with the headers open and all of a sudden it was firing with the exhaust valves open. Check to make sure your rotor contact is pointing straight out. If it is pointing back you could turn it advanced far enough to run but the gap would be too wide to jump.

I also had the same thing happen in my Ciera beater and I found that I had a cap from one source and a rotor from another. Not made to the same specs.

Have you checked your fuel pressure? if the pump is pumping and the carb is carbing then it must be electrical.

Keep us posted.

Tom

[GreyGhost]

62:

My son is a circle track racer. Not long ago he was leading a race, looked like the win was in the bag (never count on it). Going down the backstretch with a 5 car lead, suddenly there was a loud explosion and a big yellow ball of fire came out from under the car. It was a spectacular sight (night time) and you could almost hear the crowd gasp. He coasted to a stop and was towed into the pits. When we tried to start the motor again it sounded a lot like what you're describing. In an earlier heat race he got sandwiched by another car and the wall. The car seemed alright but we didn't look close enough. The battery is located inside the car behind the driver's seat. The contact with the wall pinched the long battery lead to the frame and it eventually shorted out. Boom! Race over.

Check all your wiring.
__________
;)
Al

[ssvett]

Rick, I don't know what all you have had off of your car latlly, but have you checked for a (large) vacuum leak. I had a 77 and a 78 do this to me. Both times the customer had just removed their intake and did not get it sealed up good............Most every thing else that I could think of has already been mentioned........Good luck..keep us informed..........Steve

[rd62rdstr]

Great job Steve! I had forgotten to mention vacuum leaks. I had this happen to me on the camaro recently. I had replaced the intake manifold gaskets and forgot to hookup the small vacuum hose from the power brake booster to the carb. The car ran and did not stallout, although it ran very bad. A good way to check for vacuum leaks is with a can of WD-40 or starter spray. Spray it around the hoses and carb. area, if the car suddenly revs up, you found your leak. Sal

[ssvett]

Sal, That is how I find the leak, but the easiest way I have found to see if a leak exist is, with the car running and the air cleaner off, put both hands over the carb and try to choke it. If it dies, there probably ain't no leaks....Steve

[Solid62]

Hey ya'll!

Thanks so far for the great advice!

We have tried all of those things but so far, nothing fixes it.


Since the car was running pretty darn well until I starting pulling plug wires looking for the missing cylinder, I am inclined to go back to the timing chain.

It does have a bit of slack and even though it is still lined up on the marks, I am wondering if the slack is enough to make the cam bump around enough to bounce in an out a few degrees.

The chain has not slipped, but since we don't have it all back together anyway, I think we will go ahead and pull the current set and replace it with the new double roller set I have on hand (Donna really wants to do it for the practice anyway, go figure!)

Most everything under the hood is new, however, I am curious about one thing...
Why does the distributor cap and rotor button not crossreference from a 62 to a late 60's early 70's set?

I bought the car with a 74 cap and rotor set on the 62 distributor and it has really run fine (1,000 miles). Is this a big problem other than the Judge points?

Also, is the firing order for this 62 327/340 HP the same as the later 327 and 350's


Thanks Doctors!!

Rick and Donna:beer

[Tom Bryant]

Rick,

First off all small blocks have the same firing order. 18436572. Since you have the new chain and gears put them on. Might as well eliminate that variable.

As I said before, the '62 dual point distributor is a one year only item only found on the 340 hp engine. First year for tach drive and last year for dual points. '56 to '61 dual points used a small rotor that just pushed on the top end of the dist shaft. The cap was a 4" dia. item that was held on with 2 spring clips. This distributor was used on the dual 4 bbl engines only.

'62 dual points used the bigger round rotor held on with 2 screws. It's the same for all '58 to '74 distributors whether regular or FI engines except the above listed dual 4 bbl engines. The cap used on the '62 340 hp engine is the one used on '58 to '63 high horsepower (solid lifter) FI engines. It was a dual window cap. The cap is 3 11/16" dia. and has the screw clamp retainers on the sides.

The '58 to '74 single point cap you now have and the correct cap differ in that the correct cap is a dual window. The single window cap is good for service replacement and function but would not be correct for judging

I hope this helps.

Tom

[Fast Ed]

I had a similar problem with my 69 elcamino and weny thru all the things you tried. The only way to make it go was to the floor and i mean it was fun but ! My racing buddy looked at it and went rite to the starter! now this was 30 + years ago so bear with me.
There was a small wire broken but the insulation was making it connect sometimes.

Good luck!
Fast

[Solid62]

Hey Fast Ed, At this point, if you said ask my mother, I would!

Every bit of advice is good and sometimes it is a ridiculous small item that is giving you grief.:eyerole


Thanks for the info Tom. I thought that was the issue with the cap, but again, sometimes it is the small stuff that makes you sweat. I can get the right cap for about 35 bucks, but will wait until I change the gears and chain (changing too many things at once can also give ya trouble!)

'preciate the help!
Rick

[rd62rdstr]

Rick, now I'm really concerned! In past postings it was Rick and Donna. Now it's just Rick!? See how they are? The corvette stops running and they go and leave on you. lol. I'm just kidding buddy, thought you could use the humor. Hang in there. Sal

[Solid62]

No sweat guys!

I was busy writing alone to you guys 'cause Donna was out in the garage pulling the old timing set. Her eyeballs caught what mine did not...

The set had so much slack that the marks could be on or off by a tooth. Enough slop to make the timing jump a bit back and forth potentially. I rewarded her eagle eyes with a little bit of elbow grease!:D

I really hate not having a drilled crankshaft. Putting the Crank gear and new balancer on is gonna be a drag:r

Anyway, let's keep our fingers crossed!

Best regards!

Rick (AND DONNA!!)):beer:love

[Tom Bryant]

Rick,
Sounds like your car has a sharp crew chief for a co-owner.

Tom

[Solid62]

She is better than me when it comes to details!

Did I mention my 20+ years of wrenching experience? Guess I forgot to mention my lack of attention to detail!:bash

Okay guys, the mystery is solved. After puttin on the new roller set, it was darn obvious just how much slack the old timing chain had! OUCH!:r


Oh well, you never get to old to relearn the obvious!


So puttin this thang together I am referencing the Haynes manual (cause now I'm skerd I'll do someting wrong) and dang if the manual don't give two different scenarios for puttin the timing set on.

Paragraph says to find #1 TDC compression stroke and put the cam on with the timing mark at 12 o'clock. Then the picture and illustration says to find #1 exhaust stroke and align the cam and crank gear marks (my old way shadetree mechanic way to do it)

Correct me., but ain't these two methods producing the same results?

And does it matter if the #1 piston is on the compression or exhaust stroke as they are the same position until you link the cam to the crank with the timing chain? I mean the crank goes around twice for every cam revs. Right?

Cause now I'm really nervous!!!

Rick and Donna!:beer:love

[Tom Bryant]

Hi Rick.

I'm sure you meant that the crank goes around twice for every cam revolution. Both ways of installing the chain end up with the same result. Just be sure it is on tdc on the compression stroke when you install the distributor and that the rotor is pointing at #1 cap terminal.

Sounds like you found the problem. I hope that the rest of the engine is solid. You should be cruising again in no time.

Tom

[Solid62]

Thanks Tom!

I edited my booboo (midnight postings can get you in trouble!)

Yes, I believe we have the problem fixed. Interesting to note that after we installed the cam, the distributor buttin was pointing a couple of plugs off (remember the harmonic balancer issue from before? The thing wouldn't line up during timing)

Obviously the timing set was goofy for a while and the dealer had tried to compensate by turning the distributor.


Anyhoo, first firing attempt gave us obvious firing out the exhaust. Gotta go back tonight and reset the distrib...


Adios!

Rick and Donna:beer

[Tom Bryant]

GO RICK GO!

Tom

[Solid62]

Thought you would enjoy a pic of Donna gettin serious!

I quote."Damn Sparkplugs!":mad

Bestest to ya!:;)

Rick

[Yoda]

Originally posted by 59Tom
GO RICK GO!
Tom

GO DONNA GO :J :J :J http://www.corvetteactioncenter.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif
BudD
:w

[Solid62]

Sad but true, the Cam was off enough to have Valves and Pistons meet in a rather unjoyous occasion!:cry

Well, it's off to Paragon to order new pushrods, and over to the local shop to have a five angle valve job and maybe a couple of valves (they don't look bent, but might as well do the whole nine yards...)

Rick and Donna:beer

[Solid62]

I do have for sale these cool new pushrods. They are specially bent to give that cam the ride of it's life!

Now only $19.95 (hurry, limited quantities exist!):;)


Rick and Donna:beer

PS, you can visit our web site for more "performance parts in action!"

[Rowdy1]

So sorry to hear about the "untimely"meeting of the valves and pistons. I haven't been on in a couple of weeks or I would have added my two cents. I had the same problem when I bought my 62 last year. Went crazy trying to find the problem until I pulled the front timing cover and discovered I could touch the timing chains together. Being in a rush to enjoy the new toy, I only did the top end. To make a long story short, a word of advice, if you're not sure of the miles on the motor, and judging by the condition of the timing chain, I would certainly think about dropping the pan and looking at the bottom end while you're waiting for the valve job or any other parts. I ended up having to locate another 327. I could have saved myself many hours of doing the top end twice if I had done it right the first time and checked everything out from the start, especially not knowing anything about the miles on the motor when I bought it. Good Luck, use fender covers, A Fellow 62 Owner

[Solid62]

You are right of course...

I actually did look at the bottom end already. The oil was clean (no metal of any kind) and the rods were tight. The motor was burning pretty clean until our unfortunate demise so I feel pretty good about the rest....:upthumbs

The advice is good regarding the fender covers. I use extremely soft packing blankets (they are much larger and easier to wash) but were removed in most photos to show more of the car and less blue rags!:;)

Thanks for the advice, :w I'm sure we'll be swapping stories again!

Rick and Donna:beer

[Rowdy1]

As long as you've done you're homework on the cylinders and crank with regards to the bearings and journals, you should be good to go. :) I also used to do quite a bit of wrench turning in my younger days, it's amazing what you can forget when you're in a rush to get back to the good old solid axle days. I made so many stupid mistakes doing mine it's not even funny now, six months later!:cry Nobody ever said going fast was cheap.

I'll check back to see how you're making out.:crazy

[Solid62]

Sounds like you've been there, done that, got the T-shirt!

So, where the pictures of your ride? I love to see a great C1!

Rick

[Rowdy1]

I could write the "Things NOT To Do" book when I think about what I did or didn't do. I still haven't figured out how to post a picture in here, one of these rainy days I might get it. :confused

Looking at the weather for the holiday weekend, I will have the time to try.:(

Later

[Solid62]

Easy!

When you reply, look down under the reply box that you type into.

There is little box that says "Browse". Click browse and it will let you search your computer for files. Select the file and click open/Ok. When you post it will auto upload.

Two caveats:
102 Kbyte size maximum
Only one photo per post.


Good luck and hope to see some beauty shots!

Rick

[Rowdy1]

Oh well, I tried sending a picture, but my file is too big.:confused Back to the drawing board. I'll have to work on this one.

Thanks Rick, your 62 is very nice!!!

[Tom Bryant]

Rick,
Is it running yet?

Tom

[Sean M]

I've been down this road before with my 61 283 2x4 (carters), duel points. I diagnosed the problem as fuel system after much frustration. I removed the fuel lines and then rand the engine by manual gravity feed pouring fuel into a funnel with a hose running to the "Y" that splits into the duel carbs. Once it ran great that way and knowing I had a new fuel pump and the fuel lines were clear of obstruction back to the tank, I traced it back the the inside tank pickup where I found serious sludge and obstruction in the line and end sock. GOOD LUCK

Sean

[Solid62]

Well, after much cussing and such, it looks like the crank gear is mismarked!!!!

With the marks aligned as discussed (see previous posts) the intake valves hit the top of the piston and bend the push rods. Didn't have this problem before replacing the timing set.

Comp Cams verifies I have the correct set.
The crank gear does have the A 0 R keyways and I do have it on the 0 keyway currently. You can't put the Cam gear on wrong, and the Crank gear only has timing marks on one side...

I've done about 15 engine rebuild over the years and this is my first time with timing problems!:mad

Any advice for me?

I would like to avoid degreeing the cam (standard alignment should have been fine) and I really don't like foolin with the balancer (since I have an untapped crank) but I am sure this is my problem.

Especially since it is obvious that the valves are opening way early (exhaust valves opens near the middle of the power stroke and the intakes are full open at TDC during the Exhaust/Intake transition stroke. I would tend to believe that we set the crank gear to the Advance keyway...

You should see that carb spit up gas like a baby on bad formula!

ARGH!!!

Rick

[Tom Bryant]

Rick,
I assume that you backed off the valve adjustments so the cam would turn freely when you installed the gears. How did you readjust the valves? I don't recall you stating if the cam was solid or hyd.

Back off all the valves so they aren't opening and set one cylinder only for checking purposes. If solid lifters, set them loose, about .030. If hyd set them at 0 plus 1/4 turn. This will make sure that they aren't too tight. Make sure that you adjust them on the base of the cam lobe, fully closed. Then turn the engine again by hand and check for valves hitting. Don't force it. I hope you don't have any bent valves from before or Donna will get to pull the heads. You will want to do a compression check after you get the timing problem solved to look for any cylinder with very low or 0 compression, bent valves.

If they still hit,I know that you don't want to hear this, but I don't see any other choice other than to pull the front cover off again and verify the timing marks. You're right that the cam run in the engine before so too much lift can't be the problem. If you still have the old gears compare the mark locations with the new ones. Or get a set from the Chevy dealer to compare and return them later.

The problem should show it's ugly head after these checks. If you have to pull the front cover again check the cam for brand markings. Might get lucky. If that 340 hp short block still has the original cam it will be the 097 Duntov. Valve clearances are .012 intake and .018 exhaust. With the condition of the removed timing set it could be that you have the original cam in the block. Doesn't sound like it has ever been rebuilt before.

Let me know what you find.

Tom

[Solid62]

So, we have properly set the clearance at 1/4 past slight friction on the bottom of the lobes (no sweat) and yes they do hit.

So pulled the heads (Donna loved that 65 ftlbs of torque!) and sure enough, the lifters are coming up with the pistons.

Now, you know that the valves are suppossed to lift a little early to account for good gas scavenging and swirl mixture and all that, BUT, these guys are way early.

Last time I had the cam gear off, there were no end markings on the cam. The lifters are HYD and still have a nice convex surface with no appearant wear. Obvious aftermarket replacement.

The pistons look like the original hightops (Maybe 10:1?) and the cylinders still have obvious crosshatch. Since the car WAS running the plugs nice and tan with no oil usage, I believe it is in good shape, though I am still suprised by the chain slack.

I agree with you that the lift is not the problem. I have new stock pushrods and they are the same as the old ones.

The pistons do have a tiny nick in them where they made contact. I know that stress of smacking valves can put in unseen stress cracks, so I am carefully evaluating them. I have seen piston explode at 6000 rpm from this sort of thing.

However, the valves aren't bent at all, so my guess is the stock pushrods were weak enough to really absorb the damage and thus the pistons are probably fine.

WHEW!:eek


Okay, tonight we'll finish disassembly and give another update tomorrow.

The saga continues!

Rick and Donna:beer

[Jack]

Rick & Donna:
I've never had my hands on a 327/340 ... but I think that might not matter here. It seems that maybe this car's original cam may've been solid ... but now it has hyd lifters? Also, it may appear motor's never been built. BUT... Could it be there is now a non-original, aggressive cam in her ... one that might very well need to be degreed-in? Maybe old TG set was installed NOT @ zero ... maybe it was indexed well enough with the old floppy TG set ... but not with new set. Also, could it be the lifters have not bled off sufficiently prior to setting preload ... maybe they're gummy inside? What do you think ... you too Tom? BTW, you guys have the patience of Job!
JACK:confused

[Tom Bryant]

It's obviously had a cam change. But to what? 327/340 used the Duntov 097 solid lifter cam. The cam would have had to be retarded :Silly significantly to avoid the intake valves hitting. That doesn't sound right. It sounds like the engine is fairly fresh except for the timing set. :confused Also sounds like the right pistons for the 340. They are the same as FI short blocks. Should have plenty of valve relief for a fairly agressive profile. It might be our old friend the 327/350 hp hyd cam.

Rick,

Since you have the heads off and you will be taking the front cover off again have you considered pulling the cam out and checking for GM casting numbers? How did the engine sound before? Mild lope, smooth, choppy lope? Maybe we will learn something during the teardown.

BTW It is easy for me to have patience with this project. It isn't my car! :L :L :L

Tom

[Solid62]

Thanks you guys for the ongoing help! It actually makes it a lot easier to be patient when you can have diatribe with others....:TALK :TALK

So far we have not seen any marks on the end of the cam. I will be pulling the cam Thursday Night (too much work at the day job to get home in time for wrenching):cry

1. The lifters are bled down and not gummed up...
2. The pistons do have large valve reliefs (only the intakes are tapping the pistons)...
3. The motor had no lump to the idle. It did run like a raped ape before, but idle was smooth...
4. Heads have not been milled...
5. Block has not been decked...
6. With the heads off, it is obvious that the lifters are rising too early..

So, We continue our journey into the macabe:eek

I will update on Thursday night.

BTW Tom, I bought the GM Casting Book and the Corvette Vin Book.!!! Great Purchase!

I have a Holley 3310-4 from a 66 425HP 396 Chevelle
and the intake is from 65-67 Camaro/Chevelle iron 4bbl holley setup.

As you know the heads are LT1. So maybe the previous owner was putting in an interesting cam??? But again, It seems to be a mild grind... Very streetable

Adios!
Rick

[Jack]

BTW It is easy for me to have patience with this project. It isn't my car!

:L :L GREAT!!! Tom, you're so darn right ... and I'm just as sure your humor does help R&D through their trials.

This thread is a PERFECT example of how CAC helps me too ... I find R&D's problem very interesting (maybe entertaining in a gearhead psyche). As I try to think through R&D's problem, I not only reaffirm my own limited knowledge, but it also opens the synapses to new thoughts & possibilities too. I'm a firm believer in "two sets of eyes are better'n one."

I anxiously await to hear what R&D find/do ... same goes for GWTILL's big block ('81?) swap!
JACK:gap

[Solid62]

Any suggestions for a replacement cam?

Since I am going to be down n the motor so ddep, I might as well entertain the replacement of the cam and lifters.

Obviously, I will mike the old one and see if the wear is acceptable and if it is an interesting cam, I might keep it. However, more ponies is not a bad thang!:cool

We're open to suggestions.

BTW I will be keeping that Holley 3310-4 and Intake for now, as the FI unit is gonna hit me for about $8K!!!

So a little lump is okay with the 4-speed as there are no vacumm accessories or stall convetors to deal with. The biggest problem is still the 210 degree water temp....

LASTLY, Rob, if you're out there...
The guys bring up a great point regarding the usefulness of this thread. I have several digital pics that I would like to add to the thread that probably would be useful (to show folks following the thread in the future,) documenting the issues. Is it okay to add some kbytes to your server? If so, how can we do this?

See ya!

Rick and Donna:beer

[Jack]

R&D:
As Tom inquired, it'd be interesting to first ID the cam you have now ... just what is it?

Just a thought ... But Wolverine (Crane subsidiary) makes several cams that are purportedly "equivalents" to noted hot OE cams. One comes to mind here. Wolverine pn WG1053 has 254º/254º dur @ .050" and lift .485"/.485" and lobe ctrs @ 110º/118º. This is quite nearly equivalent to a mechanical "Duntov 30-30" that I understand was in some '64 & '65 327 models and produced 365-375 hp:eek :eek ... of course it can be and probably was run w/hydraulics in other applications. This is a rather aggressive cam; I don't know if you have the compression ratio to match ... maybe you do. I don't know if "budget" is in your '62's vocabulary, but one of my favorite suppliers www.autosupplyhouse.com @ 1-800-438-4070 has pn WG 1053 for under $65; plain hydraulics @ $1.19 each, hi-po hydraulics @ $3 each and solids @ $2.50 each. There's NO online catalog but other cams are available too ... I recently got an L-82 "equivalent" for $42. I'm sure there'll be others with suggestions just as good or better. JACK:gap

[Rowdy1]

There's a such a wide range of cams to pick from, without some direction of what you want it to do, it's hard to recommend one. I've always been a fan of the lumpy idle. I went with a cam made by the guy that was designing cams for Big Daddy Don Gartlits and I believe may have come up with the first roller cam. Don't hold me to it, I haven't researched it to that degree but I have a friend that is my guru for power and he swears by them. I love my cam, with the MSD ignition and the rev limiter, I'm currently using the 7000 rpm chip and still making ponies at that rpm. I can hunt up the spec sheet if you'te interested, drop me an email. In my 62 I'm running a 30 over 327 with 11 1/2 to 1 comp. aluminum heads, 700 double pump, msd dist, 6al box, 2 1/2 inch exhaust front to back, port matched victor jr. intake, k&n filters, 4:11 posi, thus the nickname, Rowdy one:) It'll cruise all day at 2500 but it will also rock & roll when you whack it. I think I paid around $90 for the cam, again, if you want more details on the rest of the parts, drop me an email. I check every day to see how you're making out. You're 62 brother, LJ.

Still haven't figured out how to get my pics in here, waiting for my pc guru to stop by.

[Solid62]

Here is the culprit:r

Look carefully at the attached pic and you will see (barely) the the Advance and Retard Keyways have a nice clear dot to indicate the Timing, BUT the Neutral Keyway has a very faint 0 to mark the timing spot.

Sooooo, when I installed the damn thing, I looked for the obvious dot, not noticing that there were two dots and a faint 0. IF I had looked a little more closely before putting it on, I would have had a fair chance at seeing it!:cry


Now, 16 pushrods, a lot of scraped knuckles, and some gaskets later, we are ready to reassemble:J

Well, big lesson learned!!!!!! Go Slow!~!

About the Cam: it has a lot of numbers on it:
1 579
J6
16
D2
C2
CNC
965741

good luck figuring it out!~!


Rick and Donna:beer

[Tom Bryant]

Rick,
Glad you found the culprit. It seems to me that if the valves were hitting in the 4 degree advanced position that you must have a cam with a good amount of lift. Do you or can you borrow a dial indicator to measure the lift at the lifter? That times 1.5 and we would know if it was a Chevy cam or not. I'm thinking aftermarket performance hyd. I could search more for the cam markings but they don't look GM. Cams can be hard to ID. Some have the GM parts number as an ID and others have other reference numbers. It might be a very good cam to leave in there. You did say it ran real strong.

Now a few comments about cams. The 30-30 cam that Jack refers to was the 327/ 375 FI and 365 4bbl cam. That's all. Gm didn't use a cam with solid lifters in one application and hyd in another. It was good for the time it was used. Like the Duntov you didn't get up on the cam until 3000rpm plus. Zora liked high rpm horsepower for competition use. In a road race situation where a close ratio 4-speed was used the engine speed was kept in the power band. By modern standards the lift is moderate and the duration is too long for good street use. This cam was later used as the LT1 cam in '70-'72. Although it was given a new part # the cast ID # stayed the same.

TRW and others sell cams ground to GM performance cams specs as replacements. Common "blueprint" cams are a little different item. Back in the late '60s to early '70s there became a need to have a closer tolerence replacement cam for stock and some super stock NHRA drag classes where stock cam specs were ruled. These cams are made to exacting specs and match the original lift and duration measurements that the NHRA inspecters will be looking for. However the ramp profiles were altered to allow more area under the curve, in effect giving better breathing with the same stock specs. I put a Lunati 327/350 blueprint cam in a '61 Corvette with a built 302 and it was noticably more radical than the GM 327/350 cam in the '68 sitting next to it.

So what are these cams good for? Well, other than NHRA stock classes there are the NCRS correct restorations where the car is put back to original and the judges do listen to the engines for a correct sounding cam. Other than that these are 35 to 45 year old technology and there is much better available today. These old cams had long durations and overlaps where unburned fuel would enter the intake and blow on out the exhaust valve before it closed. High compresion ratios made up for some of that.

The 327/350 cam is widely considered to be the baseline of the modern hyd performace cam. I credit Bruce Crower for developing the modern non-symetrical cam lobes in the '70s. Compression was down, mileage was down, and performance was terrible.

He developed a short duration profile with rapid intake opening rates and rapid closing rates while holding the valve as far open as possible for as long as possible. This allowed more complete cylinder filling, virtually eliminated loosing unburned fuel out of the exhaust and created higher cylinder pressure, in effect "fooling" the engine into thinking it had a higher compression ratio.

Better drivability/mileage and more power were the benifits. Torque curves as flat as Kansas from down low up to the limit of the engine have been developed by all the cam grinders thanks to this technology. It just doesn't make any sense not to use a modern profile cam today.

Rick,

If you decide to change the cam I have some ideas. We will need to know your axle ratio as cruising in the torque peak is very important. I'm rambling and I'm going to bed. Talk to you later.

Tom

[Rowdy1]

I know the feeling of finally finding a problem that's been driving you nuts! Glad you found it and I agree, take your time, I made some VERY silly mistakes putting mine together the first time simply because I was in a hurry to get it on the road.

I also agree110% with Tom on the modern technology aspect. Search your brain thoroughly to make sure you know what you want, then decide. Gotta get to work, good luck.

PS......Tom, you are truely a tremendous asset to us, I value your knowledge and I wish I lived closer to you, you definitely know your stuff. Hats off to you.

[Solid62]

WOW!

Tom, did you just read all that from a book!LOL!!

Great info!. Rowdy is right, you are an awesome asset!

Okay, I will work on the tranny and diff specs. We are going to reassemble and get her running for the summer.

This winter will be a complete rebuild from the oil pan drain plug to the air cleaner wing nut.

Your help on the cam will be great. Since I am running aftermarket LT1 heads anyway, we are going to replace them with a set of World Products Heads I have sitting new in the box (171cc Intake runners, 76 cc Chambers, 2.02 Stainless Manley Intake Valves and Stainless Exhaust, Stock Rockers, screw-in studs and 1.25" springs.) Supposed to be good for about 30 horses...

So a decent Cam would be a nice addition. We would like to keep the bottom end original (love the pistons!) and just bolt on/in a few improvements. Will make restoring to stock a little easier in the future..

Okay, gotta get to the job that pays the bills!!

Donna says "thanks for the help also!!! (I think you are her new hero!!)


THANKS!!!!!
Rick and Donna:beer

[Rowdy1]

Along with everything else you have to remember to do, DO NOT, make the same mistake I did. When I put my alum. heads on, I torqued all the head bolts and rocker studs and used the arp thread sealer on the head bolts only. Unknown to me, the intake rocker studs on my heads are drilled all the way through. When I started the motor up for the first time, it smoked a little but having only done the top end, being in a rush to not lose my first summer with the new toy I atributed it to the extra comp. from the new heads, 64cc chambers. I ended up due to some other things, the end of Oct. pulling the motor to check everything out. I had to find another block which I did, rebuilt it from the bottom up and it still smoked. Drove me CRAZY:mad until I happened to see raw oil on the top of the valves with the intake off. Took the studs out, cleaned everything up, used the thread sealer, presto, smokeless. We tried every test in the book and were about to pull the heads and send them back with a VERY nasty letter:r until we found MY STUPID MISTAKE!!! Let us know what cam you decide on.

Later

[Tom Bryant]

I'm starting to get a fat head. (Rob, we need an smiley face for swelled head). Yes I was the kid that read Hot Rod in English class. LJ, I like the specs on your '62. I'll bet it screams. How well do you get along with the 11 1/2 compression ratio with available pump gas? What headers did you use? I would like to hear your cam specs too. Sounds well thought out.

I like a little lumpity, lumpity too. I have a new 140, Z28 optional, cam on the shelf(speaking of old tech). I have always wanted to use it in a light weight car that would rev fast, with about 4.56 gears ( under the bench) and that lightweight L88 flywheel and clutch that I have been saving all these years. I would top it with that old Smokey Ram intake up on top of the cabinets and a 850 double pumper. A 3" stroke crank in one of the 4 bolt blocks I have been hording , for 302, and a good set of alloy heads and I would have a real screamer. Hmmm maybe in a chopped and channeled A bone coupe weighing it at about 1800 lbs with an overdrive 5 ot 6 speed. Sorry, When I start to think I get dangerous.

Time to go to work.

Tom

[Solid62]

A swelled head smilie for you and doofus smilie for me!!!


Well, we got her back together and she had no fire.....

Donna says tonight, "I think the spark is crappy, pull the coil tower wire and jumper in an extra wire to see the spark jump"

"Okay, okay' I says, "But I know she had spark before the teardown"

So I do it and....

Turns out we also had a EXTREMELY weak coil.:crazy :bash

That was why she up and died on me in the first place and was bubbling and starting to get a little weak in the ponies. All over a two week period!

Pulled the coil off the 65 Dart GT and VOILA'! She fires up.

At least until the lifters pumped up and then boop, boop, boop through the carb she went...

So manana we'll back off the rockers a bit and try again. Think I'll drop by Autozone and pickup an Accel coil....
:J :beer


Rick and Donna:booty

Oh yeah, I included a shot of a NEVER FIRED UP 62 Fuelie that's in the Pidgeon Forge Muscle Car Museum.

Enjoy!

[Solid62]

Here's another shot!

[Solid62]

Okay, but this is this last one! I don't want to swamp Rob's Server!

[Rowdy1]

Sounds like you've got quite the stash in that garage huh? Probably a good thing I don't live closer. I thought I had the specs on my cam in a folder next to my pc but I don't. I'll have to dig them up for you, it's a real nice cam, a Chet Herbert cc4r. I have no problem with the pump gas, I use only 94 octane Sunoco. I think the MSD has a lot to do with that with the multiple spark. I've always been a lover of a high reving low geared small block.

Hope you get all the bugs out soon Rick

[Tom Bryant]

LJ,

Yes, Chet Herbert is reguarded as the first to offer a roller cam. They were big in the '60s. I was wondering if that was the name you were going to give.

Tom

[Tom Bryant]

It does sound like you have the lifters too tight. I think the official GM setting is 1 1/2 turns after 0 clearance. I always ran my 327/350 cam at 1/4 turn. Legend was that they revved better. Who knows?

BTW. Great '62.

Tom

[Rowdy1]

I knew I'd find it if I looked in the right place Tom. They are as follows:
Model:C4R
Duration: INT. 286 at .050 255
Exh. 296 at .050 263
Lift: INT. .504"
EXH. .504"
Lobe Separation 105*
Installed at split overlap
Valve Lash INT. .026
" " EXH. .026

I'm sure all this makes sense to you, but I'm a little green with it all. I have very basic knowledge and went by a very good friend's advice that's been building race small blocks for years on what to use when I told him what I was looking to come up with horsepower wise after building it. I have NO complaints with the way it runs.

[Solid62]

MAN OH MAN!!!!

We just had a fabulous weekend!

Put on the new World Heads and stuck the old LT1's in the corner of the garage.
Got the valves adjusted pretty close (1/4 past slight friction, still ticks a bit) and new accel canister coil in time to get her to the Mayfield, Ohio 2001 Show.

WOW!:eek She runs soooooo purty now!!!

The show was awesome. About 900 cars showed. All pre 1970 for the most part, and only a few vettes. We are in the parade circuit making the rounds and gettin plenty of :upthumbs.

We were the only 62 vette with the Hardtop on (there was a sexy 59 vertable and a 62 With the softtop up) otherwise, they were all C2 and C3's.

People were actually running up to car whenever the parade idled, to ask questions. We loved it!

Donna commented it was like being famous, everywhere you go, people where yelling and waving. Never got that reaction in the 74!!

SO anyway, thanks to EVERYONE who contributed!

I am amazed at the difference the new heads and timing set made!!! She purrs like a kitten until I let her roar. A couple of streetracers (Latemodel Camaros) tried to get my attention, but I am too old to be ******ed. I just dusted 'em enough to let 'em know that old iron (and Plastic) is not to be trifled with!:r

Now I get to struggle with the Softop adjustments. I have a new top installed and new weatherstripping to put on, but we're waiting to find someone who can adjust the top correctly. Man what a pain!


GO CAC!!!
Rick and Donna:beer

[Rowdy1]

Glad to hear you're running again, and very well it sounds like. What cam did you go with, the one that was in it? I can appreciate the feeling of finding a problem that was driving you nuts and beating it none too soon. I can also understand the wife getting the movie star feeling. She used to say all the waves and thumbs up were for the car, now it's because she looks "hot" in it. ( She may be right!) We have cruise nights here every night of the week, and it never fails, when we pull in, the guys all want to know what's under the hood, and the women all want the car. The newer ones just don't get the attention the older ones do. I don't have a hard top yet, actually, I've only had the rag top up twice since I bought it. One of these days I'll get a picture of mine up, my files are too big, whatever that means. Got a huge storm coming in, gonna shut it down. Congrats Rick & Donna:beer

[Tom Bryant]

Rick and Donna,

Congratulations on getting the '62 running. Sounds like if you run the lifters again and go to 1/2 or 3/4 turn you should be in good shape.

I've had my top in and out of the '59 many times . What is your specific complaint with the top fit? Maybe I can get you going in the right direction.

Tom

[Jack]

Super! What a payoff!
JACK:gap

[Solid62]

Thanks Guys!

We kept the mystery cam for now. I could see a bit of babbit on the front cam bearing showing, so it won't be long before she gets one of ya'lls recomendations.

Obviously, we'll do the whole thing, but I wonder, is it best to keep the stock bottom end and just refurb it? I have this dream (HAHAHA) that we will get her back to Judgeability someday.

In order to do it we need:
Complete 62 FI setup - Baseplate, Distributor, Air Cleaner, FI
Correct year heads
Correct years Waterpump
Various odds and ends.

So $10k or so. I have also lately been fantasizing about the new GM Fuel InjectionSetup that comes with all the goodies for about $3500. Would make quite a conversation piece at the showsa since the car was a Fuelie originally...

Okay, so, you dared to ask...
Specifically, the Top has decent quality new Material but the adjustments are a bit tricky. Two main areas of concern:

1. Rear Bow doesn't meet the back deck and the rear latches don't stay latched. They pop right back up. Should I replace them. Are they worn. They don't seem to have a lock position, but rather seem to rely on some arcane force of nature and friction to work...
2. Door Windows don't close well enough against the top. WE have allnew seals to put on, but I am hesitant to start until I can adjust this thing.

I have tried messing with the four bolts on each side, but I couldn't seem to improve the fit. Once you loosen em, they are a booger to get back to the right position.

I was sort of praying for a screw or shim adjustment, but it is obviously the old grooved friction plate system. They are difficult to make incremental changes to...

Thansk for any advice you might have!

Tonight is "rearend tear down night" Hoping to find a 20 minute/ $0.69 repair!!!!LMFOA:L:L:L:L:L:L:L:L

[Rowdy1]

I can't think of anything I can buy for $.069, not even an air freshener, without the vette logo! Seriously good luck and be sure to watch everything Donna takes out of the rear so you can put it back in right.:confused As far as the fuel injection, stock and todays version, two totally different animals as you know. Mine is not stock and never will be, it's MY driver. I respect those who go that route, but it's not for me. I have a friend doing a 57 for the last ten years and even he's lost count of the $$$. Every time I stop over his garage in my 62, he swears he's one step closer to forgeting the back to every nut and bolt original and putting it back to driver status so he doesn't lose the next ten years. Keep up the good work and let us know about the rear.

[Solid62]

Well, it was less than $.69-- we couldn't get the right drum off despite using an 8 lb. mallet and some brut force.:bash

Damn thing wouldn't even budge. Swore it was bolted on!

Left side drum came off easy. Tried swapping rims-- noise still there, intermittently when driving at low speeds or braking. Rear end has plenty of lube (limited slip differential).

Really convinced the noise/problem coming from right drum. Gotta be loose brake shoe.

Considering renting a huge puller. Any suggestions?

On a separate note, am I correct in saying that the car should not have a clutch fan on it? Rick (YES, this is Donna. Now Rick is making me type also!!;)) says that it's running hot at low speeds, indicating that the fan is not pulling enough air through the radiator.

On a positive note, the car's running the best it has since we bought it. Took it out for a night cruise along the lake. Awesome! As usual, we got a lot of hoots and howls from young and old. Can't understand the 1 & 2 ratings on the Hot Ride or Not site!!

Donna & Rick (as it should be... I've earned the right since I've moved up from "tool time girl"):beer

[Tom Bryant]

Donna and Rick,
There, I got it right. The fan clutch was an option in 1960, RPO121. In '61 it became standard and in '62 it was also on all engines. There were 2 part numbers but they were used optionally on the line. In other words, which ever one was available. When your engine is cold the fan should turn and when you shut off your engine when it is hot the clutch should be locked. The idea was to allow the fan blade to free wheel when it wasn't needed so as to not suck horspower.

Are all of the fan shroud pieces there? What does your radiator core look like inside? You might ad some Water Wetter. NASCAR guys use it (Silver too I think) and it drops the running temp considerably.

BTW Donna. There are a lot of nice solid axles in this month's Corvette and Chevy Trader. Also look in Hemmings Motor News. I know there is one just waiting for you.

Rear bow latches on the rear top lid are an over center device and do get worn around the hinge pin to where they won't latch down tight. Since you didn't mention it I take it the the front bow lines up ok and the pins go in the windshield frame without any problem. If the side roof rail is too high at top of the door glass loosen the 2 nuts on the main frame mount, not the ones on the narrow arm. Lower the frame a little and tighten them. Check fit. You may have to do this over and over. Once you get the roof rail down on the door glass where it belongs rhe rear bow should be able to contact the deck.

If it contacts the deck but won't stay latched it may be necessary to loosen and lower the wire loop catch on the rear bow. It doesn't have to clamp any harder that to seal the weatherstrip.

It takes a lot of trial and error. Mostly error. I have decided that the best time to fit the top frame is before the new top is inslalled. It would be very hard to move the front bow forward, if needed, after the top cover is secured.

Good luck.
Tom

P.S. Add engine block to your list of items needed to get the car ready for judging. Your block was cast about a month after your car was built. Dates, dates, dates, everything has dates including the castings on any FI unit you might buy. I wonder if that Ram Jet 350 will fit under the hood. Driving is more fun than fussing over dates and bolt head logos.