Z06/LS6 Motor available in Camaros!

[Stan A]

Compromise……………… It was not to long ago that GM and Bowling Green personnel said that the LS6 engine package would only be a available in the Z06 model. When people were asking the question why they do not make it available in the convertible or coupe, all we heard was that they did not want to compromise the Z06 format. Well, GM has gone back on their word…………….. again!!!!!!!!!!

Currently, through a program with a company called GMMG Inc, the 2002 Camaro is being offered with the LS6 motor and special transmission on a very limited basic. I understand that this is being done because of the discontinuing of the Camaro after this year. The cost is around $57,000 and I was told that many units will go out the door at over $65,000.

This offering was being done through Chevrolet dealers around the country. Currently, I understand that Superior Chevrolet in Kansas still has a few options open on this ZL1/LS6 Camaro. Their email is www.chevyusa.com.

After all the talk on keeping the Z06 a pure product, GM goes back on their word and does something like this. This is not the first time and won’t be the last time!

[Ling_650vette]

they do it again, nothing new. Would be funny though, if they gave the Camaro the 385hp version's just so the 02 ZO6 can have 405.

[danl72]

Wow, and they said they would not put that car into production, ya right. Why would you pay $57,000 or $65,000 for a Camaro with the LS6 instead of paying $55,000 for a Z06 Corvette. What car would you really want if you hd the choice. I would pick the Z06. I know the Camaro might be a collectors item, but it is still not a Vette.

[vettepilot]

I hope people aren't paying $55,000.00 for a 2002 ZO6, if they are it's about 5000-8000 overpriced. A good ZO6 deal out the door should be $47 - 50K. But of course there are those who don't need a good deal, they just plunk down the $$$$$$$
vettepilot

[IMA Z06]

Humm, a $65,000 camaro.......Not

[Edmond]

I think Chevy should've done something different for the last Camaro's. Kind of like them putting the LT4's in the 96's.

danl72,

That's a good point, why would anyone pay $15,000 more for a car with the same engine?

I think too many people think cars are collectible. Don't get me wrong, there are a few cars out there that will definitely hold their value and quite possibly increase in value. But cars are just not sound investments.

[Stan A]

I understand that several dealers are discounting between $5,500 to $6,500 off a new Z06. With the price increase last December, 2001 of $1,500, I honestly believe that a fair discount is closer to $6,500 for the buyer. Come September this figure will be greater! Expect dealers this summer to just about give a way any Z06s they have left. The dealers will not loose anything and the 2003 Z06s will also be up in price ( I hear around $750 to $1,000).

As to the retail price on a Z06, I thought with all options it hit around 52k or so. Personally, 45k seems fair as the car is almost a year old. A 2001 Z06 with 8k mileage was just sold here in Atlanta for $34,000. Maxie Price sold two similar cars last February for $35,000 and $36,000.

Pricing should settle in by summer of 2003 as the C6 will not offer a Z0? model. This is the same pattern of sales-marketing they found successful with the C5 program.

The ZL1/LS6 Camaro is strictly a collectors car. Glad I am not a collector!

[Edmond]

Buddy of mine who works for a Chevrolet dealer told me that they sold a 01' Z06 for $45,000 with 1,000 miles on it. He said that the guy put a stripe down the middle of it and did some other 'weird' things and then traded the car back in. They took the stripe off and sold it in like a week.

01' Z06's are almost a steal. Like you said Stan, I'm sure that dealers will have some 02' inventory left over at the end of the year and they'll discount them to push them out the door. They didn't announce any significant improvements on the 03' Z06 did they? Didn't Consumer Reports say that dealers pay about $42,000 or so???

[vettepilot]

BullWinkle,
You're correct that there is not much, if any, differance from the 02 to the 03 ZO6. Maybe a color choice if the new Black paint is available. To date there seems to be no HP increase, much to the displeasure of many who were anticipating another good shot in the arm for the ZO6 and/or the entire Corvette lineup. Quite frankly, 405 HP / 400 lbs Tq is, as my ZO6 poster says, "An entirely new level of overkill". But it's not just the engine that makes the car special, it's the total package.
But I think I've gotten a bit off the original subject here, so...
back to our original program.
I for one think it's a good idea to spread the wealth so to speak, with the LS6. It will not be wide spread so let the engine speak for itself in another platform. Remember the days of the big blocks being put in everything from Corvettes, Camaros, Chevelles, to Novas. Chevrolet put the 427 in everything EXCEPT the Nova, but you could get a Yenko, or Baldwin 427 Nova. Those cars certainly didn't hurt the other's and were really a fast car because of the low weight in comparison to the rest of the Chevrolet field.
Of course the LS6 in a Camaro, (if it is truly an LS6 not just the LS1 block with bolt on heads and intake) will probably be forced to accept a very slight HP/TQ reduction both from the installation restraints of induction and exhaust system, and maybe internal politics of the Corporation. I guess we shall see.
vettepilot

[Edmond]

Are they ever going to put one of those back into a Corvette?

The $1,500 increase in price from 01' to 02' was perfectly justified I think because they put so much more into the car. But I think getting people to pay more for essentially the same car will be a tad difficult. Look at the C5's from 00' to 02', no major changes. I don't think Chevy really puts changes into the Corvette unless they feel threatened by another car. They should strive to keep raising the bar instead of waiting and then raise the bar.

[vettepilot]

There's been a lot of talk about the 6.0 liter (427) engine going into the Vette, but I haven't seen anything concrete yet. Remember this is not the 427 of old days, Even with the HP war ongoing, I really don't think we will ever see another "big block" in the Corvette, it is just too big and heavy. Even an all aluminum block like the ZL1 is way too large for the current engine bay if it is to be driven on the street, and retain all the amenities for comfort, like A/C for example. The most likely scenario is a bored and stroked 5.7 liter to increase the displacement, or a new block casting with the larger bore and stroked crank. The early LS1 blocks didn't leave much if any room for boring, just light honing , but the LS6 cylinder liners are supposed to have more available leeway for increasing cylinder size, but I'm not really sure about that.
At any rate, the price increases are incremental not just from MY to MY but throughout the MY year. For example, the base price of the ZO6 has increased twice since I purchased mine, not certain why. It could be simple supply and demand. Or it could be a new MY marketing ploy, if the price for the 2003 is raised another $1000.00 over the current 2002 price it looks like a simple $1000.00 increase, but if you compare it to the first price of the 2002 MY, that same $1000.00 increase becomes about $1500.00 over the early 2002 price. Pretty slick huh? Most people looking to purchase a new model year car probably won't know what "last year's price" was, because they weren't looking at the car last year. The marketing people know this, and that's the way our system works. That's why it pays to research the vehicle you want long before you are serious about buying, you go into the wheeling and dealing with historical pricing knowledge and armed with that info, you can decide if you are getting the deal you want or not.
In respect to increasing the HP, I don't think the Corvette team is sitting on their hands waiting for another manufacturer to raise the HP bar. Remember, it takes a huge engineering and testing program to come out with a new engine, get it certified then re-tool for production. The cost of offering an engine lineup like we had in the 60s and early 70s cannot be justified for the price of the car. Look at those European companies who offer optional engines, transmissions, and interiors... Porche comes to mind here... the price is astronomical. The target market for the Corvette probably would not stand for the substantial price increase that would be necessary to make such an offering. True there are some out there who have the resources to pay, but they are more the exception than the rule. Those are the one's who have a Corvette for their everyday toy, that way they can leave the Ferrari or Lambo in the 8 car garage on rainy days.
Well, I guess I'm finished with this chapter of War and Peace.
vettepilot

[Ling_650vette]

If they would/could build an alum 6.0 block then just do something to that, or hell just leave it stock, that would work. Considering if they dont want to go to say a Gen IV block, it already is a Gen III block, so of course it would be a good substitute. I've heard of some Fbody people using that block, and being bored and stroked to make some nicely built small blocks. Only other option, i would think, would be to get Katech in, and have them offer say a 7.0L for the car...but, that imo would be pretty pricey. Just have to wait and see what goes on i guess. Rumors are rumors, but sometimes, it doesn't hurt to believe 'em a lil bit....untill they dont produce them *cough* Silverado SS *cough* (sorry, i just dont like the fact that Ford has the Lightning, and Chevy hasn't gotten anything, being a sport truck fan :( , but i guess thats another post for another time lol)

[Stan A]

There is a new GEN III motor that is only available to GM development and race groups. It is a 427 All-Aluminum "Bow tie" setup. Early tests show that this motor can handle up to 1000hp with no trouble. However, the chances of this engine reaching the streets is somewhat small. You would have to know someone to get it. This may well change later on in the year (and based on availability).

Spoke with a GM development group about costs. Looking at $20,000 for a street setup producing 550hp/550lbs torque (that would pass emissions)on 91-93 octane. From there the prices really goes up. They claim it is very well mannered and easy to drive in traffic with a manual tranny.

Personally, I believe that we have seen the last of the so called "big block" when it comes to street cars/trucks made by GM. With all the new CAFE and mileage requirements that the big three US manufacturers will have to meet in the next five years, larger motors are not the way to go. We are already seeing some models made by two of the three US manufacturers using small displacement engines with supercharging.Expect more to come real soon.

Also you can expect cars with high volume sales like the Corvette to move toward reducing their engine sizes too. I know that all of us hate to hear this but with sales topping out over 20,000 units every year, the Corvette does effect the over all CAFE average for Chevy division. What can we expect in the future. One of the first things we are hearing is that the C6 Vette will be powered by a GEN III with multi-cam setup (four values per cylinder- No overhead cams!)Motor size between 5.2L to 5.4L with the power band push out to 6200rpm to 6500rpms. Estimates on horsepower are between 325 to 340. Also expect the cars weight to be reduced by as much as 150lbs. Performance would equal what we are already seeing and maybe a little better too.

Cars like the Vipers (1300 units), NSXs (1000 units), Lamborghinis (under 500 units), and certain Ferraris and Porsche models will not effect by the new upcoming CAFE and emission requirements because their distribution in the US is under 2000 cars per year.

I would expect performance to start costing even more than it does now down the road.

I would like to think that all of this is nothing more than a "bad dream" but I am afraid it is just a reality we will all have to face. Time will tell.

Lets enjoy what we have while we still have it!!!

[BBB454]

Originally posted by Stan A
Currently, through a program with a company called GMMG Inc, the 2002 Camaro is being offered with the LS6 motor and special transmission on a very limited basic. I understand that this is being done because of the discontinuing of the Camaro after this year. The cost is around $57,000 and I was told that many units will go out the door at over $65,000.

Collector's Edition? I'll take bets on which car is worth more in 10 to 20 years:

A) The 2002 Z06 Corvette
B) The 2002 LS6 Camaro

My choice is A.

Guess you know what I would buy if I had extra $$ laying around...

Barb :w

[Edmond]

pilot,

Well said!:D

Like Stan said, I also believe that they'll just supercharge cars instead of putting bigger motors in them. Look at that Ford GT40(?) Isn't that going to be a supercharged small block? The muscle car days of big block motors is truly gone with the environmental friendly industry that the automotive world has turned into.

I read that GM raised the C5 performance bar when Ford started to really put some effort into their Cobra R that would finally sweep the Camaro aside and play with the big boys. The result was the Z06.

Now, GM already put an automatic tranny in a Camaro SS; I wouldn't be very surprised if they actually put a auto tranny in the Z06 some day. Then again, they never offered the ZR1 with an automatic option.

This is kind of off the subject but if the Z06 has 405 HP, shouldn't it have a higher terminal speed of 168?

[vettepilot]

The ZO6 has a slightly lower top speed due somewhat from aerodynamics. The ZO6 has a CD of .31, whereas the Coupe is .2* something, I don't have the exact number at hand right now. Remember neither car will reach redline in 6th or in the case of the auto, OD. The difference in the Cd is caused from several differances in the body, one of which I read about someplace about is the front end. The ZO6 has engine intake air inlet screens, the coupe and vert do not, they have an "air deflector", that's the plastic filler panal in front of the fog lights. That air deflector, (from what I have read elsewhere) changes the aerodynamics of the front end, therefore the lower CD for the coupe and verts. The differance although minimal gives the coupe the higher top speed, that being about 175 MPH, VS the ZO6's 173 MPH. Both being achieved in 5th gear at their respective redline. Now for those who are thinking, HEY the ZO6 has a higher redline, then it should top out higher... but it also has lower transmission gearing (they both have a 3.42:1 final drive) so even though it is approx. 500 rpm higher, the shorter gearing in the ZO6 uses that rpm to achieve approx the same speed. I understand from those who have tried it, the ZO6 drops to about 160 +- in 6th, I haven't heard about the Coupe. All in all, at the top end everything is so close that all it takes is a head wind vs a tailwind or slight lift of the throttle and the balance of power could transfer back and forth all day. But I think that the Coupe is the generally accepted "King of the Hill" for the C5 top speed billing. But it had better get there first, otherwise it will be looking at ZO6 tail lights for a while until it catches up... :L :L :L
vettepilot

[Edmond]

Pilot,

Are you talking about that coefficient of drag thing?

With what you just said, I'm assuming that you haven't made a run at that top speed thing eh?:L

[vettepilot]

Hi Bullwinkle,
Yes on the CD thing... and no I haven't been over about 115 with mine, in my area there's no really good (read safe) road to get up to those high speeds. That 115 was just last weekend. Our Vette Club was returning from Japer Fl on I-10, I got caught behind traffic as we entered the Hwy. So to catch up quickly I just brought it up to 115 in 4th for a short acceleration sprint. Then dropped into 6th to cruise up to the rest of the pack.
Running between 85 - 90 in 6th gear I was showing approx. 1850 on the tach and showing 22.5 MPG average on the DIC.
vettepilot

[Eric]

GMMG is building several limited run cars at varying levels of performance. My favorite is the Black Bird.

Here's their website. (http://www.gmmginc.net/)

[twiget]

GM did the same thing with the '96 LT4's as far as putting a limited number in the F-body's. I dont remember the exact numbers, but there where only a handfull of LT4 F-body's produced.

Jason

[Eric]

Originally posted by twiget
GM did the same thing with the '96 LT4's as far as putting a limited number in the F-body's. I dont remember the exact numbers, but there where only a handfull of LT4 F-body's produced. Jason

You're absolutely right Jason. It was the 1997 30th Anniversary Camaro SS. They built 100 (I think) of them with the LT4 and it had all of the SLP goodies as well. So hi-po swaps for GM are nothing new.

- Eric

[Drewser]

Originally posted by 71Shark


You're absolutely right Jason. It was the 1997 30th Anniversary Camaro SS. They built 100 (I think) of them with the LT4 and it had all of the SLP goodies as well. So hi-po swaps for GM are nothing new.

- Eric
It just so happens that my neighbor across the street has one of them...and it is for sale. I think he wants somewhere around 24k for it and it has under 10,000 miles. Not for me, but maybe someone else. I'm still on the hunt for a late model C4 or perhaps a 2k2C5 (I test drove a few the other day, but I digress--$63,000 after financing choked me up a bit).
--Drew

[Edmond]

Drewser,

I do believe that quite a few of the 96's LT4 powered Vette's are in that 24K range now.

$63,000 after financing is quite a bit too much for me too! Or some of the 99-00's are coming down in price and much more affordable, coupe wise. As I'm sure you already know, those convertibles cost more.

[Trance_LT4]

Yes, the regular 96 LT4s are in the 16-22k range mostly, with the grand sports and collector editions being a little more.

[Edmond]

16-22K? That's even less than what I figured. The lower end of the price range is probably from private sellers right?

Trance, just wondering if you bought from a dealer or personal seller.

At that price range, I think it's really a bargain for what you get. I guess the next step up, are the new coupes that start at roughly $40,000 right?

And hey, if you aren't getting what you want out of an engine, you could always buy a crate motor and plop it in.

[Trance_LT4]

I got mine from a dealer (small dealership, but a dealer nontheless) and talked him down to 16k

[Drewser]

I test drove a 01 Z06 and an 02 coupe and to tell you the truth, when I got back in mine I liked the C4 better over all. I did like the powerpack of the Z06, and some of the interior features of the coupe (HUD, DIC, ect.) but overall when I climbed back into my C4 it felt like home. My wife thinks the C5s we drove seemed cheaper. I liked the engines, the wheels, that cool electron blue, but when we got a load of the prices ($44k for the 01 Z06--6500 miles, 47k for 02 auto coupe) we decided to look for a 93-96 coupe. To each his own, and I don't want to p!ss off you C5 owners (and truth be told I could get used to one if I had to :D) but for me the combo of the price/features didn't fit. I do have an opportunity to get a 99 hardtop with 16k miles for $26k, but that isn't a Z06 and I like the tops on the coupes. One of these day I'll find the right car for the right price but till then I'm happy with what I have. My 2 cents.
--Drew:w

[Drewser]

On one of the test drives, my wife got a speeding ticket in the coupe? :grinshot

[Trance_LT4]

I've never experianced driving a C5, but from what I've been told, the C4s hook up and go straighter under power. I guess the back end of the C5 likes to move around alot

[Edmond]

To be honest with all of you, if I had the money to get a Z06, I wouldn't. I would get a ZR1 and tune it up some. I just don't like the look of the C5.

I believe that the C5 also has some image problems. Some have noted in the forum that C5 owners don't wave, etc... I've also heard many people say that the Corvette has turned into a wimpy sports car. I mean, did they design the C5 so people could put golf clubs in the back?

[Mad-Mic]

Originally posted by BullWinkle
To be honest with all of you, if I had the money to get a Z06, I wouldn't. I would get a ZR1 and tune it up some. I just don't like the look of the C5.

yeah i gotta agree! i rather buy a ZR-1 for my next vette! i've drove an 01 Z-06 12k in miles they wanted 46k. can always talk them down if you got cash but still that was TOO expensive and i rather buy a ZR-1 next anyway cause i like the C-4 body style better! BUT if i hit Lotto or something :D i'd buy both and even a callaway ......hehe :D :D

[Edmond]

Yeah, the C4 body is my personal favorite. I'd get like a black 95' ZR1 and "Lingenfelter" it.:D

[Drewser]

I'm a golfer and the first thing I noticed is that the zo6 will hold a set (or 2) of clubs, the coupe will hold at least 2 sets. It has a lot more cargo room than my 84 coupe. Food for thought.
And the wave question. Now I can't answer for all the C5 drivers but in my experience hardly any of them wave. I kept track today cause it was a great day in the middle of friggin nowhere. I saw 12 C5s, 5 C4s and 3 C3s. All of the C3s and C4s waved. 1 of the C5s waved. More food for the noggin.

[Edmond]

Drewser,

See what I mean? Hey, I don't want to be lumped into that crowd!:L

I'll definitely get a 96' LT4 one day though. Great C4 style with a lower price than the ZR1's.

[Ling_650vette]

I've seen a few C5 drivers wave, but i hardly drive the C4, so i dont really get the opportunity to wave. I saw a guy in a 58-62 a few days back while driving, i waved first, and he just kinda looked @ me like i was crazy. Whatever. And i love both the C4 and the C5, but to me, something about the C5 fits me. I dont feel really comfortable in the C4, i've got to bow my legs out and keep the streering wheel in the highest or 2nd highest position, just to turn it w/o hitting my legs. I've heard the C5 is more roomy, but i've yet to sit in one. Still can't go wrong w/ a C4 or C5. Both are killer platforms, with loads of potential.

And personally, i'd rather go w/ the ZO6 vs the ZR-1. Never heard anything bad about either, but i like the ZO6 a lil bit more. Can't quite explain it. Both are great cars, and can give you loads of fun, but something about the ZO6 appeals to me more then the ZR-1. But to all the people that dont know Corvettes, both are wolfs in sheeps clothing

[Edmond]

But the Z06 is easier identified than the ZR1, at least to me. Now, if they had an LS6 motor in a C4 body, I would love it. I just can't accept that C5 rear end. But I also like the look of the C5 convertible vs. the C4 convertible.

[Drewser]

Not to mention that you can fit a set of clubs in a C5 vert, but a C4 vert you can only fit a putter.:upthumbs

[Edmond]

Oh, that's not important to me. I don't even golf!:L :L

[LouBelleraVideo]

I currently own 4 Vettes. 86 yellow Pace car convertible 4+3, 86 automatic Pace car convertible white on red, 88 red Callaway twin turbo coupe and a 99 Nassau Blue 6 speed convertible with white top and light grey sports seats. Among my many prior Vettes I owned was a 90, 91, 94 and 95 ZR1's.
I believe the Vette evolved from a gorgeous toy that was fun to drive but not very practical comfortwise,rattlewise,roasting your legs off from the heat of the enginewise, economicwise and technically advancedwise UNTIL the advent of the C4.To me the C4 has all the charm and toy like qualities of the earlier models but incorperated better quality in the finish, protection from the heat of the engine,unique and fun interior design, tremendous economy while using the available horsepower to the max, THAT long clamshell hood, the fabulous wheel designs and the return of the convertible back in 86. I especially like the eariler model C4's starting from 86 onward.VERY dependable cars.And what can I say about the ZR1 and that absolutley Gorgeous engine? The precurser to the ZR1 the fabulous twin turbo Callaway, WOW! just had that honey out today and loving the sound of the dynomax ultra flow exhausts!
The C5 is cool too! Especially in Nassau Blue! By far my most favorite color for a C5 followed by Millenium yellow.Bottom line, enjoy any Corvette you own.They are truely a treasure to own.

[Mad-Mic]

was alot more room in a C-5 (ZO-6) which is the only C-5 i've driven so far! the car just seemed bigger to me than a C-4. i think if i catty corner my golf clubs i can fit them in my C-4 then again i got a 97 full size chevy p/u for that kind of stuff :L

[Ling_650vette]

hey Bullwinkle, look @ it this way...

Only people that've gotta accept that C5s rear end, are those people slower then you are :booty thats all those people are going to be seeing anyway ;)

[Drewser]

Originally posted by Mad-Mic
was alot more room in a C-5 (ZO-6) which is the only C-5 i've driven so far! the car just seemed bigger to me than a C-4. i think if i catty corner my golf clubs i can fit them in my C-4 then again i got a 97 full size chevy p/u for that kind of stuff :L
If you think the Z06 is big you should testdrive a coupe! It is huge in there by comparison. Actually, I have one of the largest bags know to man (Rodney Dangerfield big) and it fits in the back of my coupe. The closer to the seat backs the better, even with a 47" driver. I have a pickup too, but when you can combine golfing with vetting...well, it is a little slice of heaven. I live for days like that.
--Drew:w

[supernatural400]

LT4 Firehawks

30 total:
· 1 prototype
· 29 U.S. production
In addition, Pontiac SVE (Specialty Vehicle Engineering) built two prototype WS.6 Trans Ams with LT4 engines


LT4 Camaro SSs
110 total:
· 3 development cars/prototypes
· 100 U.S. production
· 6 Canadian production
· 1 accidentally wrecked by dealer

I also heard today that they are going to make 69 camaros's with the LS6 starting price around 75k. there going to show one I think either june or july in carlise then destroy it, car will be out later this year. and all of them are already sold

[Edmond]

Is that going to be the last hurrah for the F-bodies? I mean the LS6 ones?

[supernatural400]

Supposed to be back in 2005, Supposed to be, but I don't know. could be the death bell for it

[vettepilot]

If 75K IS the price , they already destroyed the car... IMHO
vettepilot

[supernatural400]

there supposed to be the new Yenko's and COPO,s of today.
No doubt all will end up with collectors and with a 75k price tag, to buy one after that you'll pay alot more.
I'm sure that's what alot of people were saying about the 67 L88's.. what 6 grand for a car, my house didn't cost that much, now there worth around 300k

[Stan A]

Received word this morning that the LS6 Camaro Z28 was so successful with the 69 sold cars that GM decided to offer up a few more LS6 motor to increase this number to over a 100. Original price was $56,000 but a few hit as high as $65,000.

Bean counters...always looking for the profit! I guess you really cannot blame them.

Stan

[Ling_650vette]

Can't blame them you're right, but 65k for a car thats not even gonna beat a ZO6? :confused :eek I couldn't see that, but to each their own i guess. Personally, i'd rather drop the dough on a ZO6 and add the next few k in some mods vs putting it all down on a limited edt Z that i would hardly drive.

[Ling_650vette]

And supernat, you're right about the L-88...also, how many people do you think that considered buying ZL-1s are kicking themselves in the butt right now? lol. I would freakin KILL for a L-88 67....but, i highly doubt i can find one of the 20 that're around for cheap. So, looks like i'd just have to settle for one of the other 427s (like thats a bad thing).